AAA ALPA Thread 9/28 to 10/5

[curious]

Question: If Alpo national goes to the meet on Oct 8 and the East MEC does not show up. Can ALPo national at that time ratify any tentative agreement that is reached WITHOUT a membership vote or does it have to be sent to the membership?

 

[Junebug172]

Hey USA320Pilot, what's up with this. Someone posted this to our boards.

I though you said USAPA was a done deal?



"If you have not sent a card, you must do it now. We anticipate filing with the NMB very soon, and your card, very possibly your single card, could make the difference between remaining subject to a union that would send a threatening letter such as that above, or one built from the pilot up, one determined, and Constitutionally bound, to let the pilots decide.
We are in the final push for cards and hope to have enough to file soon. We are just short of the number necessary, and urgently need every pilot to make this mission his own. Click here to download the Authorization Card; please save it to your computer, print 20 or 30 and put them in your bag. We then need you to donate time (before, during and after every trip), making it your mission to personally get at least 10-20 cards signed in the next week. This is something we need every pilot to do; you cannot assume someone else will do it for you. If we fall one card short of the number necessary, we fail. It’s that simple. That last card you get may be the one that we need.
Do not procrastinate another minute; even if you mail tomorrow it will be upwards of a week before we get your card. Do it today, do it now! (Download a copy of the Authorization card here.)"

 

[sharktooth]

I'm pretty certain you will see an election. Question is will the easties come through for you guys. I know, I know. You've never in your 1 million years of flying seen so much unity. Well I still believe that when it come down to it your bretheren will vote as they always have. With themselves in mind. Or to be fair with their families in mind.

Are you trying to imply that, with their families in mind, they will keep ALPA and the guaranteed FO pay for the rest of their career verses dumping ALPA and sequester the Nicolau "award" in the trash where it rightfully belongs, allowing themselves much enhanced pay for the rest of their careers?

Let me see here. FO pay to retirement with ALPA or Capt. pay with someone else? Gosh, the choice is so difficult.

Yeah, your logic certainly is in the "up is down" category. Even a Bubba living in a double-wide with his goat can see that ALPA guarantees FO pay to retirement. I would suggest that every other option looks better.

 

[Bear96]

Are you trying to imply that, with their families in mind, they will keep ALPA and the guaranteed FO pay for the rest of their career verses dumping ALPA and sequester the Nicolau "award" in the trash where it rightfully belongs, allowing themselves much enhanced pay for the rest of their careers?

You can dump ALPA but the Nicolau isn't going anywhere.

 

[sharktooth]

You can dump ALPA but the Nicolau isn't going anywhere.

You are correct! Thanks for agreeing.

 

[BoeingBoy]

This is MEC Chairman Jack Stephan with a chairman’s message to the pilots for Tuesday, October 2, 2007.

Late last night I received a letter from ALPA President Captain John Prater that for all intent and purposes, alleges that our MEC is in non-compliance with fundamental obligations under the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws and policies especially in regards
to the AAA-AWA merger and that prompt corrective action is necessary. Although no overt threat of Trusteeship is mentioned in the letter, the letter obviously seeks to lay the groundwork for such potential action by the Association against the US Airways pilots.

Among other requirements, Captain Prater stated that since the Executive Council has determined there is no ground under ALPA Merger Policy to set aside the award, our MEC should adopt a resolution recognizing that the award is to be included in the single agreement to be negotiated under the Transition Agreement and ALPA Merger Policy and that the AAA MEC should adopt a resolution reversing all prior efforts to bar or precondition the continuation of the JNC process. Captain Prater’s letter is a must read and has been posted in What’s New and emailed to all pilots.

In light of this correspondence from ALPA International, I have called for a Special MEC Conference Call Meeting tomorrow with the agenda of discussion and possible action on recent events. As always, we will talk about the situation at hand, discuss our options and then deal with the issues.

Given the cards that have been dealt, the MEC has always acted in the best interest of the US Airways Pilots and I am fully confident that they will continue to do so. We will continue to keep you informed. For now, we ask that you be involved and follow the “Three-Prong Approach.â€￾

As always, fly safe and continue to watch out for each other.

Jim

 

[Tiger 1050]

Are you trying to imply that, with their families in mind, they will keep ALPA and the guaranteed FO pay for the rest of their career verses dumping ALPA and sequester the Nicolau "award" in the trash where it rightfully belongs, allowing themselves much enhanced pay for the rest of their careers?

Let me see here. FO pay to retirement with ALPA or Capt. pay with someone else? Gosh, the choice is so difficult.

Yeah, your logic certainly is in the "up is down" category. Even a Bubba living in a double-wide with his goat can see that ALPA guarantees FO pay to retirement. I would suggest that every other option looks better.

You're making the mistake of believing that USAPA can throw out the Nic and get you a Capt seat. Nic isn't going anywhere. If you guys believe that you can represent all pilots fairly then you'll have no choice but to implement the Nic. Litigation would be a slam dunk if you don't or won't. With all of the resolutions and rhetoric coming from your side of the fence I don't think it would take much time for a judge to figure out that your sole purpose is to circumvent a binding arbitration. But don't take my word for it....

So having said that, yeah I do believe that when it comes down to it you guys will come up short on your vote.

 

[hp_fa]

Why do I get the impression that Jack Stephan is mad and about to make additional mistakes?

 

[Tiger 1050]

Why do I get the impression that Jack Stephan is mad and about to make additional mistakes?

It's because you are especially clairvoyant!!!!!!

 

[Tiger 1050]

Guys in all seriousness which is it? Do you have enough cards for your union experiment or not...


Supposedly this is from the USAPA website...

Prater makes it as clear as he can; subjugate yourselves to us or we're coming in. This, ladies and gentleman, is what it's all about, the reason USAPA came into existence, the reason well over two thousand of you have joined the battle cry to remove ALPA from US Airways' property once and for all.
If you have not sent a card, you must do it now. We anticipate filing with the NMB very soon, and your card, very possibly your single card, could make the difference between remaining subject to a union that would send a threatening letter such as that above, or one built from the pilot up, one determined, and Constitutionally bound, to let the pilots decide.
We are in the final push for cards and hope to have enough to file soon. We are just short of the number necessary, and urgently need every pilot to make this mission his own. Click here to download the Authorization Card; please save it to your computer, print 20 or 30 and put them in your bag. We then need you to donate time (before, during and after every trip), making it your mission to personally get at least 10-20 cards signed in the next week. This is something we need every pilot to do; you cannot assume someone else will do it for you. If we fall one card short of the number necessary, we fail. It’s that simple. That last card you get may be the one that we need.
Do not procrastinate another minute; even if you mail tomorrow it will be upwards of a week before we get your card. Do it today, do it now! (Download a copy of the Authorization card here.)

 

[skyflyr69]

It will be my pleasure to work as hard as I can to puke ALPO off our property. 100,000 dollar staff, National officers that won't cross a staff "strike" etc etc. National is USELESS. Send in those cards and please donate monies to YOUR UNION. No roll call votes at USAPA, line pilots decide our contract.

To --ll with other ALPA carriers, they wanted us dead along time ago. Remember the Delta business plan that worked only if US was gone? Why raise their "boat"?? TWA wrap around agreement against Ozark and National does not start the merger policy? No support for PATCO, No strike in lieu of stolen pensions? Who the heck is ALPO National working for??

Buh Bye ALPO.
:angry:

 

[Junebug172]

To --ll with other ALPA carriers, they wanted us dead along time ago

Because you guys are the biggest bunch of ***holio's this industry has ever seen!!!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Guys in all seriousness which is it? Do you have enough cards for your union experiment or not...

Just remember one thing, you only get one shot a year. With all the expected challenges to void cards, going in with an overage will only guarantee an election. The campaign is going to be very interesting indeed.

 

[Cactus737]

Are you trying to imply that, with their families in mind, they will keep ALPA and the guaranteed FO pay for the rest of their career verses dumping ALPA and sequester the Nicolau "award" in the trash where it rightfully belongs, allowing themselves much enhanced pay for the rest of their careers?

I think you make a very good point - that those pilots will make a decision with their families in mind. In reality few people are true idealists, and when it comes to making serious life decisions, they have charity begin at home.

How many 1989-hire furloughed AAA pilots and their families, prior to 5/2005, were making long-term financial plans based upon attrition-based career progression? I just can't imagine some of these guys, who've spent more time on furlough than flying the line since hired, were seriously counting down the days until they were going to be recalled from furlough, and zoom right into a captain seat.

The AAA recall stats tell it all - a 5% acceptance rate? Oh sure, some people blame nic, but they didn't see recall acceptance numbers much better at Delta, Northwest, or United either. Those pilots, with their families in mind, didn't want to make life plans based upon the future of their carriers while in bankruptcy. I take a sampling of 5 friends I have who were furloughed from those 3 carriers in the past few years. They've all received recall letters, yet only one accepted. Three of the four who didn't accept recall found better flying jobs (UPS, Southwest, jetBlue), and one bacame a lawyer.

But that's that past. Let's talk about pilots making decisions with their families in mind now.

Voting no on a contract / separate ops-
PROS
- rapid advancement
CONS
- years of litigation to overturn an award that's a longshot at best
- LOA 93 rates with no pay raises
- possible fragmentation
- possible implementation of the Nicolau Award in another merger
- possible unbalanced furlough from the East and West in a downturn
- possible award of all future growth flying to the west by an arbitrator

Voting on a contract:
PROS
- immediate raise to within a few percent of current LOA 93 captain rates
- parity with all west contract sections (31 days vacation, improved reserve rules, etc)
CONS
- less rapid advancement, but advancement nonetheless

I don't know about you guys, but when I have to make a decision with my families best interests at heart, my ego doesn't always get to win.

Let me see here. FO pay to retirement with ALPA or Capt. pay with someone else? Gosh, the choice is so difficult.

Current AAA group 3 captain rate is $124ish. Proposed Group 1 FO rate is in the $140s, and Group 2 FO rate is in the $130s. Your choice.
Plus, I heard that in the Rice Committee they were considering extending the FO payscale and increasing the proposed FO rates (as a percentage of captain rates).

Yeah, your logic certainly is in the "up is down" category. Even a Bubba living in a double-wide with his goat can see that ALPA guarantees FO pay to retirement. I would suggest that every other option looks better.

Here's the thing. When I hear tons of outrage from the AAA pilots, I don't just blow it off as "stupid". People don't inherently like being angry (well most people anyways), so it's difficult for me to believe that there isn't SOMETHING to the outrage. But I would think that you might consider trying to understand (but not necessarily agree with) the West sentiment. We're not trying to buy your seniority, nor do any of us think that the award steals it from you. We're merely trying to move on with the process, and are frustrated that we see the opportunity to make huge advances in our contract (that benefits AAA pilots more than AWA pilots) slipping away. Why aren't we outraged with the award? Simple - our expectations were managed alot better than yours were. Funny enough, normally when the MEC tries to manage our expecations, we try to recall them. In fact, some idiot is trying to recall the MEC right now because we're not trying to get over $200/hr (narrow body) in the contract.

 

[EastUS]

For some historical context of what Prater's letter means:

Prelude to Surrender
On April 3, Richmond fell to Union troops as Robert E. Lee led his Army of Northern Virginia in retreat to the West pursued by Grant and the Army of the Potomac. A running battle ensued as each Army moved farther to the West in an effort to out flank, or prevent being out flanked by the enemy. Finally, on April 7, General Grant initiated a series of dispatches leading to a meeting between the two commanders.

Although you clearly meant the posting to be of the standard, smary-azzed young AWA punk sort:

It's extremely generous of you to even make any such slight comparison. The Army of Northern Virgina stands in history as one of the most dedicated, self sacrificing, and firercely determined fighting forces ever assembled.

They only lost due to an extreme surplus of yankees. Towards the last..they had less than 28,000 against over a quarter million yankees surrounding the area.

I count only some 1800 or so of you out west

Please keep up the genius level western politics...there may yet be Southrons who aren't yet convinced that "war" is fully necessary here