AAA ALPA Thread 9/28 to 10/5

[EastUS]

Possibly between your outbursts, you'll notice that I never included anyone at national among "your fellow pilots". I'll ask again - name one of the many concessions over the years that ALPA national forced upon the US pilots over the objections of the MEC and/or pilot group.

Hmm..been noticing what's happening with the Nic business lately? I'll go with that being a good one for starters

I'm clearly not much convinced that any MEC over the years has actually represented "the pilot group"s feelings very well at all. A "fellow pilot" is, by definition, one who actually flies the line, and not one who's sole purpose in life's to make major pay claims/max block hours/highest equipment pay rates/etc,.... whilst harrumphing around with his fellow politicians in first class hotels during rotating Alpo vacations...Oops; I mean "conferences".

While we're at it? Name ONE/ANY actual advancement in the benefits and working conditions that anyone from Alpo has achieved for actually working line pilots during, umm...say = the last 20 years?

PS: "Any two year old can point fingers when they don't like an outcome. It takes a man to admit responsibility for the results of his actions or inactions." Hmmm...weren't you very much tied up in Alpo for a goodly long while sir?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Hmm..been noticing what's happening with the Nic business lately? I'll go with that being a good one for starters

Since it isn't in effect, it hardly qualifies as "one of the many concessions over the years". Even there, did ALPA construct that list or an independent 3rd party? The same 3rd party that constructed the Shuttle/US list, under the same parameters, that didn't raise an eyebrow among the East pilots. Oh - that's right - the East pilots stayed far, far away from the "bedrock principal" of DOH on that one......

A "fellow pilot" is, by definition, one who actually flies the line, and not one who's sole purpose in life's to make major pay claims/max block hours/highest equipment pay rates/etc,.... whilst harrumphing around with his fellow politicians in first class hotels during rotating Alpo vacations...Oops; I mean "conferences".

A self-serving definition that "just happens" to fit your "it's always someone else's fault" victim status, but not THE definition. Were not all MEC members line pilots before being elected - ergo "fellow pilots". Were not all MEC members kept in office by the line pilots, thru their affirmative votes or lack of recall? Maybe I missed the coup when some fellow pilots seized power against the will of the pilot group and installed themselves as MEC - could you send me a copy of that memo?

While we're at it? Name ONE/ANY actual advancement in the benefits and working conditions that anyone from Alpo has achieved for actually working line pilots during, umm...say = the last 20 years?

I asked first and you still haven't come up with one "detriment" that wasn't ratified by the pilots or their peers on the MEC's......

Hmmm...weren't you very much tied up in Alpo for a goodly long while sir?

Yup - volunteer committee work for 16 years. And you haven't heard me go "Waaaaa - they made me do it - it's all their fault" a single time. Quite unlike some I could name.......

Any two year old can point fingers when they don't like an outcome. It takes a man to admit responsibility for the results of his actions or inactions.

Jim

 

[prechilill]

Hmm..been noticing what's happening with the Nic business lately? I'll go with that being a good one for starters

I'm clearly not much convinced that any MEC over the years has actually represented "the pilot group"s feelings very well at all. A "fellow pilot" is, by definition, one who actually flies the line, and not one who's sole purpose in life's to make major pay claims/max block hours/highest equipment pay rates/etc,.... whilst harrumphing around with his fellow politicians in first class hotels during rotating Alpo vacations...Oops; I mean "conferences".

While we're at it? Name ONE/ANY actual advancement in the benefits and working conditions that anyone from Alpo has achieved for actually working line pilots during, umm...say = the last 20 years?

PS: "Any two year old can point fingers when they don't like an outcome. It takes a man to admit responsibility for the results of his actions or inactions." Hmmm...weren't you very much tied up in Alpo for a goodly long while sir?

 

[EyeInTheSky]

I guess it depends on one's definition of "the troops"......

Wasn't it your fellow pilots (AKA the troops) on the MEC who gave up the DB pension without a fight? Wasn't it one of your fellow pilots (AKA the troops) who coined the phrase "Go ugly early" to promote taking the company's first offers? Wasn't it your fellow pilots (AKA the troops) who hounded certain MEC members (AKA the troops) until they got a vote on a company offer? Wasn't it your fellow pilots (AKA the troops) who passed such things as E190 pay and LOA 93? Wasn't it one of your fellow pilots (AKA the troops) who had their daughter hold the infamous "Let my daddy vote" sign? Wasn't it one of your fellow pilots (AKA the troops) that promoted "giving far in excess of the ask" during LOA 93 negotiations?

In contrast, can you point to one of the many concessions thru the years that ALPA national forced upon the East pilots over their objections?

Seems like with troops such as that, even Patton would have been driven into the sea.......

Jim

Jim,
You have to keep in mind a lot of pilots did not vote (or approve of) what you mention above. Remember all those F/O's you flew with and think about what you're saying now. You think a 22 year F/O should go below a 9 year AWA F/O? I dare you to say it to their faces. I used to have a lot of respect for you but lately.... It's ashame.

Later,
Eye

 

[BoeingBoy]

MEC CODE-A-PHONE UPDATE
October 3, 2007

This is Arnie Gentile with a US Airways MEC update for Wednesday, October 3rd, with two new items.

Item 1. The MEC held a special conference call meeting today to discuss matters related to recent events. In response to Capt. Prater's October 1st letter to MEC Chairman, Jack Stephan, the MEC passed the following resolution:

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED the AAA MEC stands behind its existing resolutions that clearly define a direction that is in the best interest of the AAA Pilots, AWA pilots, Airline Pilots Association, and US Airways Group Inc.

Item 2. US Airways Management today announced that they will be closing the PIT domicile on January 6th, 2008. The MEC believes this action is in violation of the Transition Agreement and will be requesting that ALPA International file a Section 10 dispute under the Transition Agreement. Accordingly the MEC passed the following resolution:

WHEREAS the Transition Agreement requires prior consultation with the Association prior to any base closing, and

WHEREAS the company has notified the AAA MEC that the Pittsburgh pilot base will be closed, and

WHEREAS this is in clear violation of the transition agreement,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED the AAA MEC request ALPA International file a Section 10 dispute over the Pittsburgh base closing.

[Insert the usual W.A.R item, etc here - Jim]

The Transition Agreement language concerning base closings:

In the event that the Airline Parties intend to open or close a domicile or
satellite domicile, the Airline Parties will meet and confer with the
Association and share the analysis upon which the decision is based. The
Airline Parties may close the affected domicile or satellite domicile if the
analysis upon which the decision is based establishes that there is a cost
savings generated by the closing.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,
You have to keep in mind a lot of pilots did not vote (or approve of) what you mention above.

Absolutely - apathy is any union's Achilles heel. It's so much easier to just b!tch about the results than to take the time and effort to influence those results. So I guess being too lazy to take part in events that will shape one's future qualifies one as an innocent victim in today's world.

As for those who voted on the losing side, at least they tried and deserve credit for that. But that's the way a democratic organization works - each person doesn't necessarily get what they want, they get what the majority of their peers who vote want. With emphasis on "their peers".

Remember all those F/O's you flew with and think about what you're saying now. You think a 22 year F/O should go below a 9 year AWA F/O? I dare you to say it to their faces.

Believe it or not - i don't really care which - but I said exactly the same to many of them as I've said here about the award, and well before it went to arbitration. I guess I'm one of those rare birds that says what he believes and doesn't change it depending on the audience or the situation.

I used to have a lot of respect for you but lately.... It's ashame.

Cie le vie......

Jim

 

[P51Pilot]

Absolutely - apathy is any union's Achilles heel. It's so much easier to just b!tch about the results than to take the time and effort to influence those results. So I guess being too lazy to take part in events that will shape one's future qualifies one as an innocent victim in today's world.

As for those who voted on the losing side, at least they tried and deserve credit for that. But that's the way a democratic organization works - each person doesn't necessarily get what they want, they get what the majority of their peers who vote want. With emphasis on "their peers".
Believe it or not - i don't really care which - but I said exactly the same to many of them as I've said here about the award, and well before it went to arbitration. I guess I'm one of those rare birds that says what he believes and doesn't change it depending on the audience or the situation.
Cie le vie......

Jim

Oh hell, he is just bitter because a previous merger didn't go the way he thought it should but the guy 1 number senior to him was hired before him or older than him in his class. Real travesty there. it must be hard to accept the guys senior to you on the list were actually hired first.

 

[sharktooth]

As for those who voted on the losing side, at least they tried and deserve credit for that. But that's the way a democratic organization works - each person doesn't necessarily get what they want, they get what the majority of their peers who vote want. With emphasis on "their peers".

I guess that is why the westies are so afraid of a potential and legal cram-down.

Karma in the same lifetime is somewhat unusual. But, ya never know.

 

[Elevation]

The Killer East MEC just became its first victim. Any free thinkers not intimidated by the East MEC want to start the recall?

 

[awapilotsforusapa]

Let me positively blow you out of the water with this one...

First off I know the individual who submitted the resolution for recall personally. He is a very good friend, and believe me his resolution has nothing to do with USAPA. Sorry but who ever you are you are seriously reaching. Are you dumb enough to believe that no one with inside info would read this board! You must be an east pilot trying to garner support for your new union. His only gripe is that the LEC 62 reps are not listening to the pilots concerning the contract (pay rates, rest, etc.). Nothing you suggest in you post is even remotely accurate. Now I will admit he has received a fair amount of heat for his position from the ALPA or die crowd but he in no way supports USAPA or anything to do with it... Tell me as a "junior first officer" why would he support USAPA when USAPA's main goal is to vacate the Nic award? The Nic provides him with job security!!!! USAPA will give him what ever the east dictates... and he knows this!

Sorry but your gamble to spin this totally failed...

The fo that submitted the recalls is a USAPA supporter. He called many of us for advice and support. We gave it to him and think he's doing the right thing. You must not know him that well because he is talking to us. We helped him write the recalls.

Alpo's days are numbered. The first step for us west guys is to get rid of the reps before they can cram down a POSTA.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

"did ALPA construct that list or an independent 3rd party? The same 3rd party that constructed the Shuttle/US list, under the same parameters, that didn't raise an eyebrow among the East pilots. Oh - that's right - the East pilots stayed far, far away from the "bedrock principal" of DOH on that one......"

Jim

I guess you forgot about the dynamics of what transpired during the Shuttle integration. We went for DOH and at the end Nicolau brought the MC including "B.K." back in for a "conference". Unbeknownst to the line pilots the MC moved off DOH. No thought given to the constuents opinions or wishes. Hence you have a slotted list. It might have happened anyway, but it would have been Nicolau doing it and not our own MC.

I think because of this, the line was drawn to stand by DOH no matter what. So when Nicolau brought the MC's back in for special session again, guess what? Dan Katz said "We have no changes to our position". The first hint of a screw-up by Cap. B.K. and the MC was to allow Nicolau to even be picked as the arbitrator. He should have learned the first time around with Nicolau about positions being discussed and altered after all the cases were presented. At least this time it was the arbitrator and not our own people giving us this new list.

From my perspective Cap. B.K. representing me on mergers is 0-3. But still people on the MEC elect him as a merger negotiator. Unbelievable. And I'll wager he'll find a way on to the next MC also. Good ALPA people are like that, you know.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Cie le vie......

Jim

Et tu, Brute?

Later,
Eye

 

[traderjake]

You think a 22 year F/O should go below a 9 year AWA F/O?

Please explain why the number of years it took you to hold a position is more important than the position itself?

You can't because it's not.

We lost the retirement attrition because the majority of us a dumber than a bag of hammers.

 

[Cactus737]

I guess you forgot about the dynamics of what transpired during the Shuttle integration. We went for DOH and at the end Nicolau brought the MC including "B.K." back in for a "conference". Unbeknownst to the line pilots the MC moved off DOH. No thought given to the constuents opinions or wishes. Hence you have a slotted list. It might have happened anyway, but it would have been Nicolau doing it and not our own MC.

I think because of this, the line was drawn to stand by DOH no matter what. So when Nicolau brought the MC's back in for special session again, guess what? Dan Katz said "We have no changes to our position". The first hint of a screw-up by Cap. B.K. and the MC was to allow Nicolau to even be picked as the arbitrator. He should have learned the first time around with Nicolau about positions being discussed and altered after all the cases were presented. At least this time it was the arbitrator and not our own people giving us this new list.

From my perspective Cap. B.K. representing me on mergers is 0-3. But still people on the MEC elect him as a merger negotiator. Unbelievable. And I'll wager he'll find a way on to the next MC also. Good ALPA people are like that, you know.

Good post 73. I'll tell you what - if this USAPA deal goes through I promise to wear my USAPA pin as long as BK doesn't get to do anything for the union anymore.

 

[Cactus737]

The fo that submitted the recalls is a USAPA supporter. He called many of us for advice and support. We gave it to him and think he's doing the right thing. You must not know him that well because he is talking to us. We helped him write the recalls.

Alpo's days are numbered. The first step for us west guys is to get rid of the reps before they can cram down a POSTA.

Nice try Herb.