AAA ALPA Thread 9/28 to 10/5

[cactusboy53]

The fo that submitted the recalls is a USAPA supporter. He called many of us for advice and support. We gave it to him and think he's doing the right thing. You must not know him that well because he is talking to us. We helped him write the recalls.

Alpo's days are numbered. The first step for us west guys is to get rid of the reps before they can cram down a POSTA.

Dude;
USAPA's main goal is to delay or toss out the Nicolau award. They are using the window dressing of a much better contract to gain your support. You may not be an ALPA supporter, but what possible reason would you rely upon that organization to really REPRESENT your (an AWA pilot) position?? Seek counseling and drug intervention IMMEDIATELY.

If you want more money and benefits, then launch a campaign with your fellow pilots via the AWA ALPA representatives. I do so nearly every week. The next QUICKEST way to a new contract and more money in your pocket is via ALPA. USAPA will take even longer TIME!

 

[Tiger 1050]

Nice try Herb.

BINGO!!!!!!

 

[EastUS]

A self-serving definition that "just happens" to fit your "it's always someone else's fault" victim status, Any two year old can point fingers when they don't like an outcome. It takes a man to admit responsibility for the results of his actions or inactions.

Jim

Interesting, and simultaneously amusing. You actually imagine that I see myself as a "victim"? Little could be farther from the truth, as my concerns from the Nic fiasco aren't based upon any ill effects for me personally. Sounds like typical Alpo "I'm wiser and all knowing" standardly fantsized BS My issues with Alpo are not merely that it's inept, dysfunctional, corrupt, and essentially naught but a useless clique of self obsessed "politicians"...but the simple fact that nothing good comes from Alpo representation that I've ever been able to perceive. You guys simply didn't, and to this day don't do your jobs at all well. I don't discount possible good intentions, but they count for precious little if desired results aren't achieved.

You might, if even briefly, take the "Any two year old can point fingers" and actually examine just why many so people are so utterly disgusted with your apparently much personally beloved Alpo.

 

[sharktooth]

Nice try Herb.

Uh, wasn't Herb.

But then, why would anyone believe you anyway.......I mean, it is not like you have any credibility here.........

 

[Bear96]

"managing expectations" Is nothing more than a prescription for failure....Period.

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough...they're yours"

Wow, you are so out of touch with reality it isn't even funny.

Coincidentally, I happen to be dealing with a union election issue right now at work (absolutely nothing to do with USAirways, and not even in the airline industry). After many hours of research, it turns out the law is pretty clearly against the position our client wants to take.

As I see it, my job is to explain what the law is, and if the client wants to stay the course, my next step would be to begin to manage my client's expectations by explaining there is a pretty good chance the client will be spending good money for nothing (which is, of course, the client's choice, and I am always happy for the work, especially because it is an interesting issue).

But in your world, I should ignore the law out there that is against us -- or at least negelct to disclose it to the client -- and just say, "No problem! It's a slam dunk! Go for the moon! Just keep paying me! We'll keep pursuing silly arguments with the court until I get sanctioned, if you want me to!"

Wanna know what happens if we go for it, and get b!tch-slapped by the court, should we choose not to manage expectations and instead tell the client exactly what it wants to hear? HINT: See the East pilots after the Nic award. Not pretty. Perhaps even grounds for malpractice.

It must be nice to live in your dreamworld of no accountability. What a luxury.

 

[sharktooth]

Wow, you are so out of touch with reality it isn't even funny.

Wow!

With grave face, I say you are completely out of touch with reality. You have no idea what will happen. Just one issue.

My next door neighbor, an IRS auditor, says she would like all the info about the west pilots. She thinks Nicolau set up an impossible situation for the west pilots. She is looking forward to interviewing each and every west pilot. Also, the east "merger committee" members.

Have a good day, fellas. They are looking for you!!!!

OBTW, I send her everything. She said, "thanks for the retirement".

 

[Bear96]

Wow!

With grave face, I say you are completely out of touch with reality. You have no idea what will happen.

???

I never said I did. I think you are confusing issues. We were talking about the concept of managing expectations based on reality, not accurately predicting future longshots. Sure, everyone gets lucky once in a while. But is it worth betting the farm on? At least people should have all the facts to make informed decisions and understand the risks.

I daresay if you could predict the future as accurately as you claim, you would not be working for LCC.

My next door neighbor, an IRS auditor, says she would like all the info about the west pilots.

Fascinating. (What does this have to do with the topic of managing expectations?)

She thinks Nicolau set up an impossible situation for the west pilots.

That's nice. I have a co-worker who thinks the Bush invasion of Iraq was a good idea. So what?

Your neighbor does not appear to have a grasp of the Nic award and its impact on the LCC pilot groups.

She is looking forward to interviewing each and every west pilot. Also, the east "merger committee" members.

She better get busy with all those interviews then.

But what is the connection between the Nic award and IRS audits of individual taxpayers? I am having a great deal of trouble seeing your point.

OBTW, I send her everything. She said, "thanks for the retirement".

You really aren't making any sense at this point.

 

[Tiger 1050]

:unsure:

:angry:

:unsure:

<_<

 

[aquagreen73s]

You really aren't making any sense at this point.

What's scary is that he and his bud CM fly airplanes for a living. Talk about a low barrier of entry if they can do it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I guess you forgot about the dynamics of what transpired during the Shuttle integration.

I guess I phrased that badly......I was talking about the result and lack of an ensuing uproar over the "bedrock principle" of DOH not being used to put the lists together. I guess "bedrock principles" are only important to some when they help and not hurt.

As for "never abandoning" DOH - leading up to this arbitration, even Spurlock was on the ALPA board telling everyone who would "listen" that DOH was a non-starter and that protecting attrition and the wide-bodies was a much better plan of action. But hey - what does he know......

On a slightly different note, since you're involved in the USAPA organizing drive.....

The last page or so of this thread is the problem you'll have down the road if you're successful. As far as I know, every active pilot gets to vote on LEC reps every two years. In between, the recall is always an option. Thru their votes, the line pilots are the union - either by their vote on any given issue, their vote for LEC reps, or their vote for/against recall. However, as you can see there are plenty of pilots who claim to be helpless against some all powerful union which constantly acts against the pilots best interests. No matter what union represents them, they'll pay scant attention and devote little if any time until something comes along to upset them enough. Then once again they'll rant and rave about the all powerful union that they're helpless against.

As I said, apathy is any union's Achilles heel. To many pilots could care less about what's going on with the union until it's too late, then they play the victim card.

Jim

 

[EyeInTheSky]

As I said, apathy is any union's Achilles heel. To many pilots could care less about what's going on with the union until it's too late, then they play the victim card.

Jim

Jim,
So why not embrace the fact that so many pilots signed cards for change? Why bash the process?

Later,
Eye

 

[BoeingBoy]

Why bash the process?

You mean the process where 10% of the pilots in a base decide who the LEC reps will be and the other 90% b!thc about what "ALPA" did? The process where 50% of the pilots decide major issues like LOA93 and the other 50% b!tch about being screwed by "ALPA"? As long as that process is alive and well, it doesn't matter what name is on the union letterhead......

Jim

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I guess I phrased that badly......I was talking about the result and lack of an ensuing uproar over the "bedrock principle" of DOH not being used to put the lists together. I guess "bedrock principles" are only important to some when they help and not hurt.

There was some uproar, just nothing like this mess. Plus it was very short lived. Then some more heated talk when word leaked out about Cap. B.K. and the back room dealings with Nicolau. Then it kind of withered. It was interesting. That is why one of the tenets in USAPA is there will be an end to such dealings.

As for "never abandoning" DOH - leading up to this arbitration, even Spurlock was on the ALPA board telling everyone who would "listen" that DOH was a non-starter and that protecting attrition and the wide-bodies was a much better plan of action. But hey - what does he know......

I think he's very astute and respected. He's also the USAPA computer guru putting together the virtual voting program.

On a slightly different note, since you're involved in the USAPA organizing drive.....

The last page or so of this thread is the problem you'll have down the road if you're successful. As far as I know, every active pilot gets to vote on LEC reps every two years. In between, the recall is always an option. Thru their votes, the line pilots are the union - either by their vote on any given issue, their vote for LEC reps, or their vote for/against recall. However, as you can see there are plenty of pilots who claim to be helpless against some all powerful union which constantly acts against the pilots best interests. No matter what union represents them, they'll pay scant attention and devote little if any time until something comes along to upset them enough. Then once again they'll rant and rave about the all powerful union that they're helpless against.

As I said, apathy is any union's Achilles heel. To many pilots could care less about what's going on with the union until it's too late, then they play the victim card.

Jim

Sorry, the plan is to do away with LEC's in favor of block representatives. Each block of pilots will have a rep. The current proposal is to have about 300 pilots per block rep. Each of these pilots could be based anywhere. Through electronic communications and virtual voting each rep will have the ability to stay in touch easier with their respective constiuents. You have to think of our present government for a clue as to how it will work. Each block is the equivalent of a state. The only difference really is there is no electoral college to elect the president. It will be done by popular vote.

Apathy is the key, hopefully the block rep will be able to keep even the most apathetic pilot informed. With a smaller constiuent base and ease of communications it is envisioned the rep can at least garner a pulse of what the line pilot is thinking. Then represent his group before the governing body. If the senate, (name hasn't been chosen yet) is unable to agree then voting by the line pilots can be easily set up.

Hope this answers some of your questions. It's still a work in progress until we come down to approving the Constitution and ByLaws. It will be the first real test of the virtual voting method.

 

[P51Pilot]

I guess I phrased that badly......I was talking about the result and lack of an ensuing uproar over the "bedrock principle" of DOH not being used to put the lists together. I guess "bedrock principles" are only important to some when they help and not hurt.

As for "never abandoning" DOH - leading up to this arbitration, even Spurlock was on the ALPA board telling everyone who would "listen" that DOH was a non-starter and that protecting attrition and the wide-bodies was a much better plan of action. But hey - what does he know......

On a slightly different note, since you're involved in the USAPA organizing drive.....

The last page or so of this thread is the problem you'll have down the road if you're successful. As far as I know, every active pilot gets to vote on LEC reps every two years. In between, the recall is always an option. Thru their votes, the line pilots are the union - either by their vote on any given issue, their vote for LEC reps, or their vote for/against recall. However, as you can see there are plenty of pilots who claim to be helpless against some all powerful union which constantly acts against the pilots best interests. No matter what union represents them, they'll pay scant attention and devote little if any time until something comes along to upset them enough. Then once again they'll rant and rave about the all powerful union that they're helpless against.

As I said, apathy is any union's Achilles heel. To many pilots could care less about what's going on with the union until it's too late, then they play the victim card.

Jim

Which master does ALPA serve? NWA, DELTA, United, etc. To many to be an advocate for any one, especially anyone that is an ant. Just ask any regional pilot how much effort ALPA has provided on their behalf over the years. They are more than happy to make promises, collect dues, and hand out copies of "Flying the Line", but rarely delivered or provided support. It's a fair bet to say the ALPA regional pilot has been less apathetic and more active that the average ALPA pilot but never had the support of the "all powerful union." It's ironic how that will likely change now that the numbers are shifting within ALPA.

I guess according to you, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and the like should have just given up and established a monarchy, or better yet just accepted their fate and not had a revolution because it was the damned colonist fault that things weren't working out. I guess a different form of government and a Bill of Rights was a bad idea and couldn't have merit or produce any results because hell they were still the same people they were when loyal subjects of the King.

Of course you must be happy with the Gestapo tactics ALPA is employing now is just a credit to social orders and human behavior. You have a group of people unhappy with their representation and rights and an Oligarchy of the powerful suppressing their ability to form a new institution of government for themselves and all for power and money. Pillars of morality to be sure. There are revolutions over this kind of behavior.

USAPA will only serve the pilots of US Airways and anybody or any institution is more efficient and successful when it only has one master. It will most certainly have a new constitution with a pilot Bill of Rights. There won't be the wasted resources in having a couple hundred thousand square foot HDQ, downtown DC offices, the gravy train for National officers(Praeter's $425,000), national committee members or the rest riding on the dime of the line pilot.

 

[Phoenix]

Hmm..been noticing what's happening with the Nic business lately? I'll go with that being a good one for starters

I'ld laugh too, but not for long since to even answer the question presumes an agreement that the MEC is free from national and actually serving the line pilot. If I had an axe to grind maybe I'ld think ALPA was doing pretty good too.