AAA ALPA Thread 10/5 to 10/12

[fatherabraham]

awa320,

Thanks for the laughs with willy & Elvis
FA

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Then how do you propose the stalemate end? Under the fine leadership of ALPA and its now guidelines? Sorry, not going to happen there. At least with a new union you can have a chance. Right now, there is none.

So far the "stalemate" is nothing but a lot of bluster. Yeah, I know everyone says this and that, but so far the rhetoric has been free. A few votes are needed. For instance, a TA. Or even yea or nay on USAPA if it even goes that far.

We the people, the line pilots on both sides of this are hostages to the actions of a few groups at this point in time.

 

[Cactus737]

The East has what they had before the merger

So does the West. We want our growth, our overdue Section 6, our pass travel benefits, all of the economic gains from a new contract, our flight ops management, and most of all OUR sanity. But the merger changed all of that forever.

Sorry, but the East wasn't poised in May of 05 to gain what it has now, and that was attainable only through the merger. You want to focus on this attrition issue in a vaccuum and disregard all of the other gains you have made and will make at the expense of AWA pilots. Those inequities were all considered in the arbitration. Sorry the facts don't suit your warped sense of entitlement.

Also, it's amazing how this situation has been everybody else's fault but your own. It's Nicolau's fault, it's ALPA's fault, it's United's fault (for removing DOH from merger policy), it's Parker's fault (at least that has some merit), it's the West pilot's fault, etc....

 

[elixir]

I'm sorry to barge in on this, but I hasten to remind you that sans a merger, the West was staring down the barrel of a BK filing as explained by DP himself, so....about those "gains" you lost via the merger...I'm all ears.

The West group would not have the CBA you have TODAY...much less some "gains" that you're lamenting the loss of.

It's true, East was likely toast...but hey, the assets that they had were substantial enough to get Doug's attention....and that of Wall Street....

These types of arguments have no conclusion, East would be gone, West would have a LONG TERM concessionary contract...just to survive...how long would it have taken SWA to kill AWA then?

(rhetorical question)

At the end of the day, the "new" USAirways is able to live to fight another day, with a bunch of $$$ in the bank that NEITHER side could have gotten access to otherwise.


carry on.

 

[Cactus737]

To our West Brothers and Sisters:

We doubt if USAPA is ever going to change your opinion on removing ALPA as the CBA on our combined properties, but whether you believe it or not, the reality is that a representation election is coming. The following is not to elicit your support but to give you a few things to think about. Ask yourself not just what ALPA has done for you since 1994, ask what ALPA has done to you? Alternatively, quoting my friend (removed) as he addressed John Prater in person, "the question is not 'what has ALPA done for us lately?' it's 'what has ALPA done for us ever ?' "

At this point, the more relevant question is: "What is ALPA going to do for us now versus what is USAPA going to do to us now?"

That requires little reflection.

You might ask why I, as a 21-year US Airways employee, would have any insight into AWA? The answer is from personal experience. I was living in PHX when AWA was formed, and in-fact seriously considered working there. (Right or wrong, I turned down an interview at AWA to accept employment at [then] USAir.) I have therefore followed news at AWA longer than many of you have worked there. I still have a few good friends at AWA who have related their ALPA experiences to me over the years. My best friend is an AWA Captain and was Best Man in my wedding, and I am the step-son of (removed), who was AWA’s manager of crew scheduling for about 5 years and manager of Labor Relations for about 4 years. Finally, I have for some time been trying to gain insight as to the grievance the West pilots have with ALPA, and why you too started a decertification movement (led as I'm sure you know, by your current MEC Chairman who now states that ALPA is a good deal for the West). I have then (I hope) gained the desired insight.

But, you haven't worked here and your 21 years at AAA severely biases your opinion.

Also, regarding your step-mom, she's the most anti-labor person in management (other than Franke himself) in the history of the company, and she is personally responsible for more damage to the lives and careers of AWA pilots than ALPA ever was. It couldn't be more fitting that the step-son of the woman who spent years picking our pockets is trying to pick up where she left off.

I know most, if not nearly all of you believe USAPA is all about Nicolau; nothing could be further from the truth. While it is true that the Nicolau award was the straw that broke the back of the East pilots, we have for many years realized that we would be better off on our own than with a national "association" with conflicting interests and primarily concerned with dues money. This was demonstrated years ago by our first decertification movement; regretfully one that did not come to fruition. Dozens of USAPA volunteers have worked tirelessly (actually, that's wrong, I'm dog tired) to create from the pilot up, a brand new union. We have looked at everything that has ticked us off over the years, and we have worked to create a union that does things better, more efficiently, and from beginning to end, with nothing but the pilots in mind. I will tell you that in early meetings there were smiles in the room when we realized (after grappling with a problem) that we could do anything we wanted, anything the pilots wanted; we weren't stuck with "what National wants." It really is liberating once you start thinking 'outside the Herndon box,' I urge you to give it a try.

I don't think this is all about Nicolau, but I do think alot of your support is contingent upon your promise to undo that award. I think if you leveled with them about the long, nearly impossible, road you have to take them down to even have a shot at it, you'd quickly lose their support.

The fact that you ran through our history with ALPA, though be it with an extremely flawed set of facts, further convinces me that the support for USAPA is based primarily upon anti-ALPA sentiment, rather than actual support for USAPA. Meaning, you spin things to get people angry at ALPA, even if it's misplaced, to garner support instead of convincing people that what you're offering is a viable alternative. This is exactly what AWAPA did, and exactly why AWAPA failed.

AWAPA had no problem gaining a wave of support from frustration with ALPA, but when people began to seriously imagine life with AWAPA, the support quickly receded. AWAPA meant protracted negotiations, increased risk in mergers, and minimal representation based upon scarce resources. Also, people realized that it would still be the same group of people doing AWAPA work who had done ALPA work (ie meet the new boss same as the old boss). We would still have constant infighting, special interests groups, and unity issues, but this time with less resources from a national union to go combat the company with.

So, when the AWAPA drive was over, the AWAPA guys ran for office, and many of them are involved first hand in ALPA work today. They've found that they're in a better position to fix what's wrong with ALPA from the inside, than they are trying to build a new feeble union from the ground up.

It seems that escaping the iron grip of ALPA is akin to escaping a bad marriage - easier said than done. Regretfully, after nearly a year, an equally dedicated and selfless group at UAL (the PEARL group) has thrown in the towel. Quoting one of their founders in an email to me, "These guys love to whine, but when you put a ballot in their hands or ask them to remove their ALPA pin and replace it with a UPA pin, they simply lacked the courage." Is that you?

Courage has nothing to do with it. At the end of the day, every pilot makes decisions based upon the best interest of his family, and UPA didn't give many people the warm fuzzies.

He continued, "Now we're all going to get what we deserve with ALPA's amateur negotiators trying to go toe-to-toe with hired guns and the meanest mgmt in the industry. It's only going to get worse here. With 6% inflation and another 4 yrs before we actually have a new contract, we'll take another 25% pay cut--with little chance that ALPA can get anything like a 25%+ pay raise. Our standard of living now is probably higher than it will be AFTER our next contract. And the pilots here are playing ostrich and won't wake up to any of this til after they all vote yes and it's too late." Sound a bit familiar? Even probable? Scary, eh? THAT is why USAPA exists, not because of Nicolau. Please read the following a couple of times, slowly, if the Nicolau award was put into effect today, the decertification movement would continue - it's not all about Nicolau; it's all about getting rid of ALPA.

You've made my point - this is all about getting rid of ALPA and not about improving representation at AAA.

Also, it's interesting that you include a quote with a contract reference, because that gives credence to the West's desire for a contract. A contract could be in place before year-end, with significant improvements. If USAPA wins, no contract, whipsawing, and lawsuits. Maybe in a few years, USAPA might be organized enough to begin negotiations, but with few resources, and "professional negotiators" who STILL have to take their marching orders from a bitterly divided pilot group. Oh, don't forget, the TA stays in place, so separate ratification still applies!

So... yes we disagree on the award, but you'd be surprised about how much we do agree on when it comes to ALPA; we'll work the rest out. (You'd also be surprised at how much time is spent in USAPA meetings and discussions on how the West pilots can, and should, be protected.)

No, that doesn't surprise me at all. What also doesn't surprise me is how you can have these wonderful, productive discussions about the best interests of West pilots behind closed doors with no West pilots present.

 

[Cactus737]

I'm sorry to barge in on this, but I hasten to remind you that sans a merger, the West was staring down the barrel of a BK filing as explained by DP himself, so....about those "gains" you lost via the merger...I'm all ears.

The West group would not have the CBA you have TODAY...much less some "gains" that you're lamenting the loss of.

It's true, East was likely toast...but hey, the assets that they had were substantial enough to get Doug's attention....and that of Wall Street....

These types of arguments have no conclusion, East would be gone, West would have a LONG TERM concessionary contract...just to survive...how long would it have taken SWA to kill AWA then?

(rhetorical question)

At the end of the day, the "new" USAirways is able to live to fight another day, with a bunch of $$$ in the bank that NEITHER side could have gotten access to otherwise.
carry on.

I mostly agree with that, though the AWA in bankruptcy argument has no facts to support it. You guys hinge that all on statements Parker has made AFTER the merger was completed, when SEC law doesn't bind him to honesty. When questioned about AWA's liquidity in advance of the merger, when SEC law requires honesty, he stated that considering AWA's strong cash position, he anticipated being able to either renegotiate the ATSB loan, and/or easily raise additional financing. Meanwhile, all of the other LCC's continued to florish.

But I think you agree with my *main* point here:

That it's irresponsible for either group to assume that they would have continued to operate independently as stand-alones.

 

[elixir]

Yes, I agree with you on that issue. I'd point out that I am not one of "those guys" yet...I'm still off the property...I'd rather think I'm gonna be one of THE guys....as opposed to us/them language. I think it's quite safe to say that neither "side" would look like USAirways does now. I think it's generally accepted that East was on the fast track to liquidation parting out. I think it's reasonable to assume that West "might" look like it did pre-merger. Some large assumptions are DP's ability to score more financing without bringing any enticements to the table to get it....such as growth, reduced costs, or revenue generating programs to entice the money-men to open their wallets.

Failing those, one could argue that AWA was in line for BK....of course, Monday morning QB'ing is all anyone can do on this.

The solution? The revenue generator called USAirways (East) that makes $hitloads of money....and then loses it all, or pays their CEO's all the profits....or both...but one which under a fresh face may take off....

In steps Dougie with the grand plan...and Wall Street pours in the $$$


Now, both East and West are fighting about who brought what to the table....a fight neither will concede....and I'm not touching on the Nic award....because it may make or break the potential that USAirways has before it....how sad indeed.

I just need 15 years of fair and just "work" outta this pig....however it winds up.

 

[traderjake]

If the working Captain is protected by a fence and condition, so what?

Why do you need fences and conditions to provide protection?

Without them the fundamental unfairness of DOH is obvious even to the East pilots.

Why does the East reject the idea of negotiating fences and conditions to capture the retirement attrition?

Fences and conditions don't survive mergers.

 

[Cactus737]

Now, both East and West are fighting about who brought what to the table....a fight neither will concede....and I'm not touching on the Nic award....because it may make or break the potential that USAirways has before it....how sad indeed.

Good post, and I think you see the issue clearly. The arguments about who brought what to the table were only relevant to the arbitration, and now are ancient history. The whole point of having binding arbitration is so that we don't have to endure battles such as these.

 

[elixir]

Sir, I've been flying for money for 19 years...I'm no spring chicken either. While my longevity in the "East" system was just shy of 3 years, I've learned a lot and have the "grey-top" to prove it. I'll be happy to toss gear on either coast. At this point, I just want to finish out whether 60 or 60+ ( God help me) and go fishin'.

If I toss gear for you, great...if I toss gear Eastwise, fine...( I live in PHX). Either way, I'm confident we'll get along just fine.

No part of this business is "fair"....

A lesson I learned in my divorce.

Tailwinds

 

[WOpropTrash]

"Lets not forget that for years that US Airways was on the forefront of pay, work rules, scope, retirement's, benefits, etc."

All the while snubbing everyone with their "I have mine, screw you attitude," to the wholey owneds, and everyone else they met. Remember the scope, "You guys aren't jet qualified, any jets on the property will be flown by us," until the company was so far behind the RJ revolution that the competition took all of the small station feed? That's when things started downhill. Heck, every other company had new hires flying shiney new RJ's, while nothing of such would be heard of by the US Air Pilots. Now those same turboprops from 20 years ago are still flying! Thanks guys!

Of course, with the contract carriers, and later PSA, (but only with the J4J extortion) the RJ's showed up a little too late, but some say better than never. Then, not as originally planned replacements for the turboprops, but even flying former mainline routes, trying to keep the remains of the company afloat. No, that cant be right. I'm sure it was all a mistake meant to just screw you guys. It's been said that many, many quarters, Piedmont(Henson) was the only profitable portion of the company. Now you guys think that after you refused to logically negoniate, that you have the right to whine because you do not like the results of "BINDING ARBITRATION."

Like someone else said long ago, "The sun doesn't shine up the same dog's a$$ all the time." Sorry that the rest of the free world does not share your sentiment.

Let the chips fall where they may.

Oh, do I still sound a little bitter, after all these years?

 

[Cactus737]

No part of this business is "fair"....

Unless you're senior management, of course.

 

[AWA320]

awa320,

Thanks for the laughs with willy & Elvis
FA

You're welcome. This place needs a laugh every now and again.

 

[elixir]

Unless you're senior management, of course.

Goes without saying, I'm afraid.

 

[elixir]

"Lets not forget that for years that US Airways was on the forefront of pay, work rules, scope, retirement's, benefits, etc."

All the while snubbing everyone with their "I have mine, screw you attitude," to the wholey owneds, and everyone else they met. Remember the scope, "You guys aren't jet qualified, any jets on the property will be flown by us," until the company was so far behind the RJ revolution that the competition took all of the small station feed? That's when things started downhill. Heck, every other company had new hires flying shiney new RJ's, while nothing of such would be heard of by the US Air Pilots. Now those same turboprops from 20 years ago are still flying! Thanks guys!

Of course, with the contract carriers, and later PSA, (but only with the J4J extortion) the RJ's showed up a little too late, but some say better than never. Then, not as originally planned replacements for the turboprops, but even flying former mainline routes, trying to keep the remains of the company afloat. No, that cant be right. I'm sure it was all a mistake meant to just screw you guys. It's been said that many, many quarters, Piedmont(Henson) was the only profitable portion of the company. Now you guys think that after you refused to logically negoniate, that you have the right to whine because you do not like the results of "BINDING ARBITRATION."

Like someone else said long ago, "The sun doesn't shine up the same dog's a$$ all the time." Sorry that the rest of the free world does not share your sentiment.

Let the chips fall where they may.

Oh, do I still sound a little bitter, after all these years?

While your post is factually correct, there are two sides to this saga. You, at a wholly owned, didn't get jets, (and others' did through simple economics)...your competition got the jets, therefore, you were not complicit in the same outsourcing of mainline flying that Mesa and all the others are/were.

I had the privaledge of watching over 130 aircraft get sent to the desert during my tenure at Airways...all the while, Mesa and Chatauqua and whoever else were deploying RJ's to cover the gaping holes left by the ..

737-200
727
DC-9
MD-80
F-100

So, you may well be entitled to be pissed at getting no jets, you, in fact, played no role in the outsourcing of over 100 mainline aircraft worth of flying.

I wholeheartedly wish to thank the AWA MEC for reeling in the 190's the the AAA MEC gave away.