US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/24-6/30 Stay On Topic

[GuntherA320]

Vote yes, vote no. It does not matter. But we need to have a vote. It is time for the east to put up or shut up.

We hear a lot of predictions and chest thumping. (90% will vote no) Prove it!!!!

Let’s get a contract and put it on the table let’s see what the vote is. But stomping your feet, holding your breath and talking tough. Yawn!

I am all for a vote! Please let some west reps get us a TA! I'm serious. We had a vote 14 months ago.....it was a landslide......what will your answer be after the next landslide?

 

[luvn737s]

I am all for a vote! Please let some west reps get us a TA! I'm serious. We had a vote 14 months ago.....it was a landslide......what will your answer be after the next landslide?

You mean the vote that beat the 50%+1 margin by some 200-odd votes? That landslide?

 

[GuntherA320]

You mean the vote that beat the 50%+1 margin by some 200-odd votes? That landslide?

Wow....that is revisionist history if i've ever heard it!!!! 200 votes???....lmao......the percentages were overwhelmingly a landslide.....60/40 in political terms is considered a landslide. You better hope the east doesn't get veto power (if we do you'll never EVER see a contract) Your only hope is that it gets to be one vote. Even then it will take years. The vote for the union had a lot of fence riders on the east that voted for ALPA as the best way to go (That wasn't a vote for the NIC) Those same fence riders will never vote for a contract that includes the NIC. You have a long long long way to go to get a contract here. The fence is alive an well as long as there is an appeal. The company won't negotiate until all appeals are finalized. They don't want a contract.....The east doesn't want a contract (that contains NIC).....the only people who want a contact are 1600 west pilots that want the NIC. Good luck accomplishing that.

 

[cleardirect]

I am all for a vote! Please let some west reps get us a TA! I'm serious. We had a vote 14 months ago.....it was a landslide......what will your answer be after the next landslide?

Looking for the west to fix your problems? No, no. The east wanted to be in charge. The east holds the majority. This mess is east made and it is your responsibility to fix your mess.

The west rep brought a resolution to balance the NC. The T/A calls for three east and three west. Care to guess what the BPR vote was for that? Nope the east is going to have to fix this.

Now answer this. What is a unions purpose?

Bottom line is it really has two purposes. One to enforce the contract that we have. The second is to improve the contract when available.

If the east chooses to never even bring a contract for vote because now it will include the Nicolau. Is usapa properly performing it’s duty?

Also it is arguable that usapa is not doing a very good job of protect the contract we have.

So until there is a vote on a contract. Forgive me if I do not believe all of the chest thumping of NEVER voting for a contract with the Nicoalu. Back that statement up with facts.

If usapa will not bring a contract then they should be removed for failing to do their duty. Is that the landslide that everyone over there voted for? To remain on the current LOA93 until retirement? If so I missed that campaign promise.

Besides we don't need a landslide for a contract to pass. 50%+1.

 

[cleardirect]

Wow....that is revisionist history if i've ever heard it!!!! 200 votes???....lmao......the percentages were overwhelmingly a landslide.....60/40 in political terms is considered a landslide. You better hope the east doesn't get veto power (if we do you'll never EVER see a contract) Your only hope is that it gets to be one vote. Even then it will take years. The vote for the union had a lot of fence riders on the east that voted for ALPA as the best way to go (That wasn't a vote for the NIC) Those same fence riders will never vote for a contract that includes the NIC. You have a long long long way to go to get a contract here. The fence is alive an well as long as there is an appeal. The company won't negotiate until all appeals are finalized. They don't want a contract.....The east doesn't want a contract (that contains NIC).....the only people who want a contact are 1600 west pilots that want the NIC. Good luck accomplishing that.

Spin, spin, spin.

Let’s be accurate here please. There were 4977 vote cast. The vote was 2723 to 2254.

54.7% vs. 45.2% Not your 60/40 split. The difference was 469 votes. So yes if 235 (the 200 odd votes) had voted for ALPA usapa would never had been. Not quite the landslide you are trying to manufacture.

A single contract vote is not a hope it is a fact. It was usapa that forced single carrier. They and you will have to live with that choice. Read the injunction. Do you see anywhere in there where it says dual ratification?

Your fence riders are going to very soon realize that any and all contract that ever hit the kitchen table for review will include the Nicolau in full force.

Good luck stopping time. Things change.

 

[GuntherA320]

Spin, spin, spin.

Let’s be accurate here please. There were 4977 vote cast. The vote was 2723 to 2254.

54.7% vs. 45.2% Not your 60/40 split. The difference was 469 votes. So yes if 235 (the 200 odd votes) had voted for ALPA usapa would never had been. Not quite the landslide you are trying to manufacture.

A single contract vote is not a hope it is a fact. It was usapa that forced single carrier. They and you will have to live with that choice. Read the injunction. Do you see anywhere in there where it says dual ratification?

Your fence riders are going to very soon realize that any and all contract that ever hit the kitchen table for review will include the Nicolau in full force.

Good luck stopping time. Things change.

469 vote difference for a new union.....not 469 vote difference for the NIC......the margin will be much bigger next time. Again good luck with that new contract. Correct me if i'm wrong....didn't you have 175 more people on the property last year this time? The 95 that are off the property in the east were all new hires. Again.....the margin will be close to 60/40 for the foreseable future. Once somewhere around 800 pilots retire from the east.....you'll still be short votes. The single contract vote is not a foregone conclusion. All we have right now is a draft injunction. The east is asking for a seperate ratification vote. That's what we had prior to USAPA being voted in. Just like you claim all things are inherited from the old union. It will be easy to argue that this should be inherited too. If we get that.....wow.....you'll really never see a contract.


P.S. I'll explain why you still won't have the numbers after 800 east pilots retire.....cause i'm sure you're thinking you'd have the numbers by then.......with 800 east retirements come 250 west retirements. About 90% of any yes votes (maybe 200-300) you're going to get from the east will come from those 800 that will retire. It will still be 60/40.

 

[EastUS]

PS: I would think Cpt Sullenberger would have better things to do then come to Pheonix, that is why it surprised me that he showed up at Sandra Day.

One might fairly assume that, although he's clearly a person whom the nic abomination doesn't personally touch, he felt the need to voice his feelings on the obscene injustice of it...and did.

 

[A320 Driver]

The beauty of the ruling, at least the draft, is that a joint contract doesn't necessarily have to be accepted by the majority of the East - East just lost it's veto power. A win for the West since otherwise the East only needed 50% + 1 to veto a joint contract.

Also, according to info I received, it seems that the NAC is more optimistic that a joint contract can be reached than you, especially now that the mediator is involved.

Jim

USAPA has been optimistic about the possibilities of joint contract for some time. The truth is, and I'm using the NAC tables as reference, is that the company and USAPA are miles apart on everything that matters. Pay rates, vacation, rigs, benefits, sick leave, long term disability, you name it. I don't see how a joint contract benefits the company. I hear what they are saying, but why would they want to spend this money to settle a contract when they continue to borrow money to finance operations at the current pilot costs. You can't buy an East (or West) vote without something substantial. Time is on management's side. I believe management, not USAPA, will drag their feet, demonize us in the press and continue to poor mouth and redefine LCC to keep us as close to the bottom of scale as possible.

I just don't believe bottom of scale will buy enough yes votes to pass it. What leverage does a splintered, self defeating group of employees have anyway?

Driver B)

 

[EastUS]

....... however for the adult population, both east and west, we see an opportunity to move forward on achieving an industry- leading contract.

"an industry- leading contract."? Are you suggesting that there exist some alleged "adults" sufficiently gullible to buy that fantasy as even remotely possible, within all of the current enviornmental conditions and constraints?

OK then, I'm all ears. What's your plan, the timeline, and exactly how would such an imagined gain be forced on management at the table? Seriously; if you've got some grand master plan that guarantees "achieving an industry- leading contract."..well...what are the actual specifics as to how you would accomplish said miracle?

If there is to be any response here; I rather expect yet more "Gimme my Nic!!...Waah!" standard rhetoric that means absoulutely nothing at all in reply = "Time to move forward....Pie-in-the-Sky, bye and bye when you fly!....40 acres and a mule if you'll just vote in my nic!...rant/rave...Blah Blah Blah/etc".

Surprise us all; make some actual, foundational sense for your claim here....."we see an opportunity to move forward on achieving an industry- leading contract. " is based on...what, exactly?

 

[EastUS]

Vote yes, vote no. It does not matter. But we need to have a vote. It is time for the east to put up or shut up.

Let’s get a contract and put it on the table let’s see what the vote is.

"Vote yes, vote no. It does not matter." Umm...What?..I mean Huh? :blink: You've lost me there. If it doesn't matter to you..why call for a vote at all?

No matter. I can't imagine anyone having any problem with voting on a contract. Isn't that the planned course of events? What contract do you currently have in mind that's even remotely close to being ready for a vote?

"But stomping your feet, holding your breath and talking tough. Yawn!" I couldn't agree more

 

[HPDriver]

He didn't even require the sides to have separate ratification, which would have returned veto power to the west minority.

I'm curious as to why you would think the West pilots still need "veto" power? Wake's remedy requires the Nicolau to be used for S22 and nothing else. Even a reference to DOH will be a violation of the injunction.

The only reason the West would desire separate ratification would be to fight off any USAPA seniority list, which is no longer the case and thus making the "veto" moot.

Dual ratification is now the more desirable method as it now combines the West votes with those on the east desiring to move on to a pay raise. With the snapbacks being questionable, the only way the east will move off the substandard pay scale is with Nicolau in tow.

Looks like its the proverbial rock and a hard place.

 

[cleardirect]

"Vote yes, vote no. It does not matter." Umm...What?..I mean Huh? :blink: You've lost me there. If it doesn't matter to you..why call for a vote at all?

No matter. I can't imagine anyone having any problem with voting on a contract. Isn't that the planned course of events? What contract do you currently have in mind that's even remotely close to being ready for a vote?

"But stomping your feet, holding your breath and talking tough. Yawn!" I couldn't agree more

QUOTE (cleardirect @ Jun 27 2009, 07:40 AM) *
Vote yes, vote no. It does not matter. But we need to have a vote. It is time for the east to put up or shut up.

Let’s get a contract and put it on the table let’s see what the vote is.

Was that to plain language for you? What I am hearing from the east is that as long as Nicolau is in the contract it will be voted down so there is no need to bring a contract. That the web board experts somehow have very accurate polling data.

I say prove it. Bring a contract and let's see. If it is 90%/10% then we know. If it is 51%/49% no, then we also know.

What contract is ready? I don't know usapa has been in charge of that for over a year. Using a professional neg. Where is the contract? The mediator asked for both sides to bring complete proposals. Does usapa have one ready yet? What have they been doing for the last year? Oh thats right wasting time on law suits.

 

[luvn737s]

What's your plan, the timeline, and exactly how would such an imagined gain be forced on management at the table? Seriously; if you've got some grand master plan that guarantees "achieving an industry- leading contract."..well...what are the actual specifics as to how you would accomplish said miracle?

If you don't think your "union" is there to provide this, then I have to ask, Why do you bother with union membership? Is it the the snazzy lanyard, or the bragging rights to being a USAPA member who has done nothing but use their delaying tactics to cement LOA 93 which makes gains at other properties all the more difficult?

So, evidently on the east, it really is all about "MEEEEE!!"

 

[GuntherA320]

QUOTE (cleardirect @ Jun 27 2009, 07:40 AM) *
Vote yes, vote no. It does not matter. But we need to have a vote. It is time for the east to put up or shut up.

Let’s get a contract and put it on the table let’s see what the vote is.

I say you are absolutely right.......The Kirby proposal with NIC included for a duration of 8 years. I'm certain that will pass. :huh:

 

[BoeingBoy]

I don't see how a joint contract benefits the company. I hear what they are saying, but why would they want to spend this money to settle a contract when they continue to borrow money to finance operations at the current pilot costs.

I don't necessarily disagree, although I'm not convinced that it's not in the company's interest to get a combined contract. With the mixed flying - East crews flying some of the old HP routes and vice versa - I don't think any of us know the true cost of separate operations during irregular ops. We can debate the pilot cost of a combined contract all we want, but without the other side of the equation we can't say for sure how much extra the company can spend on the contract before the the overall cost is greater than $0.

Jim