US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/24-6/30 Stay On Topic

[Megasnoop]

Harper is deposing ALPA, but not to find a conspiracy to tie ALPA. The damages trial is against USAPA, remember them, they have already been found liable, question is now, how many dollars liable? Now what would ALPA know that can be used against USAPA? hmmm?

hmmm indeed. Im getting shaky knees. Harpers trying to pull damages out his nose with a fantasy there was an imminent ALPA TA just around the corner spring 2007. IF it hadnt been for those mean old Eastholes, conspiring with USAPA, it would have been in place before the NIC. IF there was a single contract in place, then the NIC would be Section 22 language. Alleging and proving this convoluted chain of what-ifs, 2 different things. Couple problems he has, The Kirby Proposal didnt come out until a week after the NIC announcement. If your ace negotiator hadnt stalled, reopened so many sections, maybe there would have been a final vote before the NIC. That didnt happen 4 months before USAPA started its card drive. Next problem, ALPA was still the CBA for at least 14 months before the phantom TA was allegedly ready. Based on our workings, from TA to final vote count, minimum 2 months. But if there was this fantasy TA out there, it was minimum 14 months prior to ALPAs exit. USAPA didnt even start the card drive until July 2007. Once the NIC came out, no chance the Kirby offer even with the "sweetner" would pass. That was still under ALPA. USAPA wasnt even a blip on the radar screen then. In Sep 2007 your John Jxxxx was mocking on the ALPA Natl board that USAPA wouldnt get 200 cards. Again, this is rehash, but your sides inability to remember timelines is astounding.

Now what would ALPA know that can be used against USAPA? hmmm?

Based on depositions so far, which include USAPA people, not much. One thing, it seems your attorneys got snowed by someone that events claimed to happen in 2008 actually happened in 2007. Oopsie! Harpers owed a lot of money. Damages is how he collects. No wonder the latest Hail Mary.

you may need to have a vote, but we don't and we will not have one for a very long time, all the while complying with our legal obligations which essentially have not changed at all since nic came out.

Great idea, Shucks. Since theres no TA on the table, how about a straw vote of all MIGS?

"I approve TA 2009 with West Book + 3% + NIC."

YES
NO

Should you lose the forthcoming LOA 84 arbitration, you will still have Nicolau and be (Kirby + 10%) x 2 years (at least) poorer.

Should we lose LOA84, then youll get LOA93. Enjoy! Hey, we'll grieve it for you.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The west LOST this BIG TIME, and here's why. The Judge has ruled that USAPA must make "all reasonable efforts" to negotiate a deal including the nic. ALPA already concluded that it had done so, and now USAPA will come to the same conclusion rather quickly. This unquantifiable directive is virtually UNENFORCEABLE, and amounts to backpedaling. It's apparent that the judge knows that he really has limited jurisdiction in this, and therefore cannot impose anything near what the west side was asking for. He didn't even require the sides to have separate ratification, which would have returned veto power to the west minority.

All this does is guarantee no pay raises for the west side, and separate ops and more furloughs for them as well.

 

[hp_fa]

He didn't even require the sides to have separate ratification, which would have returned veto power to the west minority.

That draft is not in final form yet. He put it out for the parties to consider. I would imagine that Harper is going to suggest that the judge add that.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The Judge has ruled that USAPA must make "all reasonable efforts" to negotiate a deal including the nic. ALPA already concluded that it had done so, and now USAPA will come to the same conclusion rather quickly.

Don't you mean that the East MEC decided to stop negotiating after Nic came out? Trying to evade Nic by ceasing to negotiate isn't the same as taking "all reasonable efforts" to negotiate a contract - quote the opposite. I'm not sure USAPA wants to play that game with the judge looking on.

He didn't even require the sides to have separate ratification, which would have returned veto power to the west minority.

The veto that would only be useful to stop a contract without Nic. By requiring that Nic be in any contract (at least in the draft order), West doesn't need a veto - there won't be a tentative agreement that doesn't include Nic.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

No one is going to get anywhere near a 'contract on the table' without a substantial picketing (etc) campaign. Stage an event in any East domicile and see how many takers you get in support of an agreement containing the Nic award.

That'll be your proof.

Would about 15 or less (depending on domicile) be considered adequate proof? That's the percentage of "100% unified" East pilots that showed up for the "march to Washington."

Jim

 

[nic4us]

In Sep 2007 your John Jxxxx was mocking on the ALPA Natl board that USAPA wouldnt get 200 cards. Again, this is rehash, but your sides inability to remember timelines is astounding.

Should we lose LOA84, then youll get LOA93. Enjoy! Hey, we'll grieve it for you.

Yeah, I miss the ALPA board, there was some first class low rent flamebait on there. How did JJ escape the malicious Cactus 18 suit, when the list of defendants other than the AWAPPA board reads like a roster of ALPA web board USAPA antagonist. The reason I donated to the Cactus 18 fund was it was obvious to me it was an attack of those ALPA posters who raised USAPA stooges blood pressure, nothing more than a vicious shot at payback. I still suggest USAPA drop the Cactus 18 appeal before these folks get the money to turn the tables on you.

Funny thing about timelines, you really do not have to remember exact dates and times, because e-mails and web-boards and USAPAs web site and AT&T and USPS all have their own way of timestamping or postmarking a correspondence.

I do not see how the West would get LOA93. The investment cost the company would have to make to change West work rules to comply with LOA93, ( for instance, dropping PBS and going to linebid) simply offsets the savings from a lower payscale. In other words, it would cost the company to put the West on LOA93, oh damn, they might do it!!!!

 

[BoeingBoy]

I do not see how the West would get LOA93.

That falls under the "keep throwing everything at the wall hoping something (anything!) will stick" gambit...

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

For all our manifest differences nic4us....you seem an essentially decent fellow. If you're truly in earnest as to "I will not join, nor give them money."...well...for what little it's worth...you have my full respect for standing firm for your beliefs and principles. That's the tricky and troublesome little part of having principles = One must adhere to them, regardless of personal cost, or..they don't exist at all. People tragically and routinely die for such notions, and...well...any job's only so much of the bigger picture. Do not take that last at all amiss,as anything trite, or meaning other than what's said. A man must always strive to do what he feels correct....or become forever less than a man.

Would you be suggesting that part of such is merely acknowledging when someone is acting upon that belief? Or perhaps the converse, if one refuses to acknowledge one is acting upon principle then...

 

[Phoenix]

I'm an East pilot. Nice try.

Is keeping a few West pilots off the 330 is worth LOA 93 pay rates for 3000 East pilots?

What would you pay ..err.. what would you have others pay.. to be on ALPA FPL? Lets start a new thread of useless questions.

 

[nic4us]

The west LOST this BIG TIME, and here's why. The Judge has ruled that USAPA must make "all reasonable efforts" to negotiate a deal including the nic. ALPA already concluded that it had done so, and now USAPA will come to the same conclusion rather quickly.

All this does is guarantee no pay raises for the west side, and separate ops and more furloughs for them as well.

That is one way to spin it. Exactly when did ALPA reach this conclusion? Was it when the east broke their contacts and walked out of joint negotiations, or was it when ALPA submitted the Nic to the company and they accepted it?

 

[Elevation]

That draft is not in final form yet. He put it out for the parties to consider. I would imagine that Harper is going to suggest that the judge add that.

I believe Harper is against dual ratification for obvious reasons and Seeham is for Dual ratification, funny huh.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

That is one way to spin it. Exactly when did ALPA reach this conclusion? Was it when the east broke their contacts and walked out of joint negotiations, or was it when ALPA submitted the Nic to the company and they accepted it?

No, it was when the west MEC passed a resolution saying they would accept nothing but the nic in unmodified form. The East MEC knew that it would NEVER be accepted by a majority on the East.

 

[Megasnoop]

Yeah, I miss the ALPA board, there was some first class low rent flamebait on there. How did JJ escape the malicious Cactus 18 suit, when the list of defendants other than the AWAPPA board reads like a roster of ALPA web board USAPA antagonist. I still suggest USAPA drop the Cactus 18 appeal before these folks get the money to turn the tables on you.

Only the ridiculous flamebait ALPA board posts hit the non-member email curcuit. I don't think anyone got 18ed for posts on the ALPA web board alone. The ALPA Board disappeared the same night ALPA disappeared. Flamers tend to flame everywhere. Maybe its time to retire the RICO, but not under threats.

Funny thing about timelines, you really do not have to remember exact dates and times, because e-mails and web-boards and USAPAs web site and AT&T and USPS all have their own way of timestamping or postmarking a correspondence.

That is a beautiful thing and one more defense against damages.

I do not see how the West would get LOA93. The investment cost the company would have to make to change West work rules to comply with LOA93, ( for instance, dropping PBS and going to linebid) simply offsets the savings from a lower payscale. In other words, it would cost the company to put the West on LOA93, oh damn, they might do it!!!!

Just reminding you of Hemenways letter. Im sure theyd just use the LOA93 parts they liked, which is all of it. But we'll file a grievance for you. FARs, lower pay, 21 days vacation? How long does it take East computer software to builds monthly lines? How much does LCC pay for your PBS monthly?

Finally, as previously discussed with members of the JNC, the Company's view is that, absent an alternative agreement negotiated by the parties, under the successorship language of the respective contracts, the US Airways collective bargaining agreement would be the surviving agreement. As stated in this letter, our desire is to reach a consensual single agreement as expeditiously as possible. However, if we are unable to reach an agreement in a timely manner, or are unable to reach an agreement with the same cost structure as the US Airways agreement the Company reserves its rights to apply the US Airways collective bargaining agreement to the merged operation.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The East MEC knew that it would NEVER be accpetined by a majority on the East.

The beauty of the ruling, at least the draft, is that a joint contract doesn't necessarily have to be accepted by the majority of the East - East just lost it's veto power. A win for the West since otherwise the East only needed 50% + 1 to veto a joint contract.

Also, according to info I received, it seems that the NAC is more optimistic that a joint contract can be reached than you, especially now that the mediator is involved.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Only the ridiculous flamebait ALPA board posts hit the non-member email curcuit. I don't think anyone got 18ed for posts on the ALPA web board alone. The ALPA Board disappeared the same night ALPA disappeared. Flamers tend to flame everywhere. Maybe its time to retire the RICO, but not under threats.

There is a shock. I thought that usapa was winning that battle. That even if they lost, that state charges were soon to be filed. That those nasty old west guys were wrong and needed to be punished. That the charges were a hammer to keeps the west in line.

Now it may be time to drop it. Oh no please. It will be so much sweeter victory to have the fourth circuit toss usapa out of court, again. No spin this time. No lost on a technicality. Flat out win for the west.

No threats. Depending on how much money usapa has left after the damages trial. The cactus 18 may come back and see if they can’t manage to remove the rest of the dollars from the east.