US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/24-6/30 Stay On Topic

[Nicstolemyjob]

Been having a great time on vacation in Mexico...probably too much tequila, but whats a vacation without a few laughs...

Any neanderthal knew what Wake was going to do...he telegraphed it on day 8...page 165.

And reading his instructions it was clear this was going to go down as it did. The question remaining is...now what?

Nothing.

Our west friends are probably measurably worse off than before, since they didn't get the immediate gratification they were praying for from Wake. The east is right where they were....and the union is still going to trudge along with the company and their arbitrator 2-3 days per month at best.

Oh, I forgot...the west will begin joining and paying in droves to stay out of the grim reapers' hands...and to spin up a voting presence that will still fall miserably short for the next 5-6 years.

Yawn

I'm out.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

And given what Parker has said time and time again, you'd be saying "Welcome to WalMart a gazillion times a day."

Nope, I have transferable skills and can thrive in a non union job, one where I have to excel.

 

[aquagreen73s]

How is USAPA any less harmless now than it was 6 months or a year ago?

Because the injunction is going to turn your DOH bull into a cow.

Did you have to not be part of the union to file a DFR?

No,but now that the union has had it's DOH testicles amputated, there's no reason to fear the tyranny of the majority.

Aqua....you obviously are angry......

Indignant is the proper word, and I'm not alone. The rest of the airline industry sees the antics of USAPA for what they are. Likewise, that same opinion transmutes to the indiviudal East pilots who perpetrated this debacle with their vote.

I don't see anyone over here on the east that angry.

Then you must not be an east pilot becuase if you were, then you wouldn't miss the angry scowls on the faces of all the ancient F/Os walking through the PHL terminal.

We don't want to live under LOA 93, however I don't think we have as many people obsessed with money over here as you guys do.

Good, because there's two options for the East at this point: LOA 93 ad infinitim or 50 grand a year in payraises for captains and 35 grand a year for F/Os, 15% into the 401k plus a return to major airline work rules, but with the Nic. You're welcome to choose your poison as you wish. That's the beauty of a democracy.

If the company goes bust tomorrow or merges with another carrier we will be ok......we've been there before.

Careful, you're getting closer to reality. . .

It also means the company can't implement a contract on either side outside of bankruptcy.

Well, there's a pretty intricate administrative organization called the NMB that has the tools to push the two sides through a collective bargaining process. I doubt the East will be able to hold up another seniority integration just because they don't like accepting a federal arbitration and when they are under court order to negotiate in good faith for a joint contract that includes Nicolau. Good luck trying to get any help from any agency, court or arbitrator.

 

[hp_fa]

Jim, the "remember" game gets stale, but I quoted that 2 months ago. DFRs are "expenses of litigation" and in Ellis are germane "to negotiating and administering the contract."

Since you're quoting out of context, I'll quote in context, continuing on the part you failed to quote,
Litigation. The expenses of litigation incident to negotiating and administering the contract or to settling grievances and disputes arising in the bargaining unit are clearly chargeable to petitioners as a normal incident of the duties of the exclusive representative. The same is true of fair representation litigation arising within the unit, of jurisdictional disputes with other unions, and of any other litigation before agencies or in the courts that concerns bargaining unit employees and is normally conducted by the exclusive representative. Contrary to the view of the Court of Appeals, therefore, unless the Western Airlines bargaining unit is directly concerned, objecting employees need not share the costs of the union's challenge to the legality of the airline industry mutual aid pact;.

Mega,

Insofar as the Addington plaintiffs and the plaintiff class are concerned, the holding in Ellis regarding the language you like to cite may not be applicable. The Addington plaintiffs and the class are party opponents, not disinterested objectors as was the case in Ellis. As party opponents it is, to me inconceivable that they should have to pay a portion of their losing opponents legal expenses.

 

[aquagreen73s]

No one that I know absolutely expected DOH. What we expected by voting in USAPA was to avoid the cramdown that was coming from ALPA national.

Then you and your like never thought this through, because exactly as the East ALPA predicted, you're now getting Nicolau in total.

Negotiating a 6 or 7 year fence after the NIC came out would have kept ALPA on this property

Possibly, but the East never intended to stop there. It was sort of weird to see the Stephan crowd competing against the Bradford gang as to which can screw the West more. Fast forward 18 months and now the tables are completely turned. There's only one way forward and that's with Nicolau.

But I'll hand it to you and the west. You stuck to your principles and now you still won't be able to excercise your NIC seniority for at least another 4 years minimum.

Possibly, but doubtful. Wait . . . what's that I hear . . . (whooo whooo, chuga chuga chuga whooo whooo) That's the freight train of Western Pacific Reality headed this way! Watch out! Anyone who believes the status quo will be in place a year from now, let alone four years from now, then I have some beach front real estate for sale in Phoenix. Major changes are coming. Bradford knew it and he said as much in his (ill advised) email to Russ Webber. Bradford knew what the Nic would mean in a future merger, and I think every east pilot knew it as well. That's why they went for the all-or-nothing USAPA option.

Aqua.....one of these days when you finally get to exercise your NIC seniority.....look back and ask yourself if it was worth it not to negotiate.

Once USAPA came in, negotiating was out the window. Who does the East negotiate with now? There is no separate MEC. The injunction will wipe out any possibility of a future Wye River. Section 22 will be Nicolau and that's it.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Possibly, but doubtful. Wait . . . what's that I hear . . . (whooo whooo, chuga chuga chuga whooo whooo) That's the freight train of Western Pacific Reality headed this way! Watch out!

Wow....

you're losing it pal.

pace yourself....you need your strength for about 6 more years...then you can have it.

I suggest a re-read of day 8 by Wake regarding the eventuality that the west will be tempted to file a contempt charge against the East or USAPA in this scenario...there is none available to you...Wake already threw that in Harper's face...

Enjoy the fruits of your "success".

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

. I doubt the East will be able to hold up another seniority integration just because they don't like accepting a federal arbitration and when they are under court order to negotiate in good faith for a joint contract that includes Nicolau. Good luck trying to get any help from any agency, court or arbitrator.

 

[GuntherA320]

Aqua,

You really are a hoot.....Are all the guys out there as crazy as you? You've been saying for months that when the Judge ruled that the NIC would be crammed down our throats. That hasn't happened. It's not going to happen. 50K pay raises???? What color is the sky in your world? I'll say one thing....you certainly are entertaining. Have you seen the movie "The Hangover" yet? You remind me of the character "Alan".

 

[700UW]

The company can't impose a contract by going into bankruptcy. Lorenzo was the last one to take advantage of that loophole, which was subsequently closed.

Yes they can, just look at fleet and m&r yes we voted on it cause the judge wanted labor peace and it was not a negotiated contract it was a final offer from the company to the IAM, but the section 1113 allows a company to have the court abrogate a CBA after negotiating with the union and they fail to reach an agreement and the court can abrogate and the company impose.

What cant happen is an abrogation and an imposition without negotiating, that is what Lorenzo was able to do.

And to Megasnoop,

If your logic stands that USAPA doesnt inherit what ALPA agreed to then why is the company still following the terms of the ALPA negotiated CBA?

Once again, changing unions does not alter what the previous union has agreed to with the company or amongst themselves.

 

[aquagreen73s]

you're losing it pal.

Losing? Ummm...the West won dude. And the fun isn't over, either! We've got the encore trial coming in August. Then the LOA 84 smackdown in the Fall. Then the Ninth Circuit upholding the trial court next Winter. Then we sit and watch what happens next. Pull up a seat, but bring your own popcorn!

I suggest a re-read of day 8 by Wake regarding the eventuality that the west will be tempted to file a contempt charge against the East or USAPA in this scenario...there is none available to you...Wake already threw that in Harper's face...

??? You're getting Nicolau in total. If you want to sit under the LOA 93 tree for the next ten years, be my guest. But we all know where this industry is headed, and sitting stagnant for another one year, let alone five or ten years, is not going to happen.

Enjoy the fruits of your "success".

It's quite a relief. If we work together, you shouldn't fare too badly in the next merger as it will be ratioed again. Just try to hang on to your job this time around because as you know, the process isn't inclined to award a seniority position to a pilot who doesn't bring a job to the merger.

 

[EastUS]

Nope, I have transferable skills and can thrive in a non union job, one where I have to excel.

It then might well fully astonish you to become at least vaguely aware of the fact that, among our numbers (at least out east), we have many successful business people of various pursuits, a smattering of lawyers (no great personal pride there..just a reference) and even a physician or two amongst our merry band. Heck, we even had a local town mayor..just for a bit of diversity Not, by a long shot, does everyone out east "need" this job.

I'm additionally amused by the fact that my own earliest business education was taken simply due to needing some type of degree...and the business admin one required the very least time and work of those then sought by the USAF.

Frankly;I'm honestly a bit taken aback that anyone who's so clearly capable of such enduring excellence, could possibly be so utterly and completely oblivious to the actual world around them..but, hey; keep on providing that inestimable input for the clear benefit all of us pathetic and untalented union workers

 

[luvthe9]

Losing? Ummm...the West won dude.

I see those 30 330 slots are on the west side huh? glad you won, that's rich!!! Why do you guys continue with this BS?

 

[traderjake]

I see those 30 330 slots are on the west side huh? glad you won, that's rich!!! Why do you guys continue with this BS?

How much does a 330 Captain make? What you laughing about?

The joke is our pay rates including the 330.

 

[traderjake]

Repeat.

 

[luvthe9]

How much does a 330 Captain make? What you laughing about?

More than than anything A-west pays. Remember jet blue 190 guys make more than you there laughing at you!! I'd be worried about cut backs on the west side if I were you. We have to get rid of the dead wood!! Keep on trying though.