US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/24-6/30 Stay On Topic

[Metroyet]

Finally I feel we are turning the corner.

You're confusing that with a Death Spiral. Your airline has been a dying diseased animal for a very long time. Perhaps this is the final act.

 

[EastUS]

You're confusing that with a Death Spiral. Your airline has been a dying diseased animal for a very long time. Perhaps this is the final act.

Clearly, the only way to save everything, is to immediately embrace the Nic, at which time...all would be well

 

[aquagreen73s]

There may be some "I told you so's" The east has been telling you for over a year that we never guaranteed we could get rid of the NIC.....only that we could prevent a cram down.

Total BS, and you know it. Seham was touting his grand legal plan that the Nic could be ignored indefinitely and that the courts would offer no recourse. The leaders of your new union then had the chutzpa (and stupidity) to send the company a DOH list that completely ignores the arbitration. We all know why they did that: because it was in accordance with the East's swallowing Seham's BS in full. Now the latest fantasy being sucked on east of the Mississippi is the LOA 84 snapback.

All you're getting is LOA 93 ad infinitim. Age 65 is here to stay. Nic is here to stay. And you horrendous work rules and payrates are here to stay until you decide to sign a joint contract which will include Nicolau in total. Take your time, as time is no longer on your side. The angry F/Os might be content making Mesa wages, but the vast majority of your captains are going to give up. And even if they don't, the chances are quite high that some sort of merger is coming down the pike. Nobody would have thought that GM and Chrylser would disappear eight months ago, yet that's essentially what has happened. There are too many airlines flying around too many seats. Something is going to give in this industry and when it does for LCC, the east will be the minority and the Nic will be the list.

That is your reality as of June 25, 2009. Get used to it. But feel free to take your time because as I just said, time is no longer your ally.

 

[EastUS]

Now the latest fantasy being sucked on east of the Mississippi is the LOA 84 snapback. All you're getting is LOA 93 ad infinitim.

Age 65 is here to stay. Nic is here to stay. And you horrendous work rules and payrates are here to stay until you decide to sign a joint contract which will include Nicolau in total. ...., but the vast majority of your captains are going to give up. And even if they don't, the chances are quite high that some sort of merger is coming down the pike.

Nobody would have thought that GM and Chrylser would disappear eight months ago, yet that's essentially what has happened.

There are too many airlines flying around too many seats. Something is going to give in this industry and when it does for LCC, the east will be the minority and the Nic will be the list.

That is your reality as of June 25, 2009. Get used to it. But feel free to take your time because as I just said, time is no longer your ally.

1) The west's vast reserve of love and concern for their "fellow pilots" is again properly noted. The very first thing I want to do is vote in Nic just to appease west greed.

2) "but the vast majority of your captains are going to give up. And even if they don't,.." Total BS, and just long established west fantasy. See 1) above.

3) "Nobody would have thought" That's something we can actually agree on, so why try pretend you've any prescience about any/all future possibilities?

 

[GuntherA320]

Total BS, and you know it. Seham was touting his grand legal plan that the Nic could be ignored indefinitely and that the courts would offer no recourse. The leaders of your new union then had the chutzpa (and stupidity) to send the company a DOH list that completely ignores the arbitration. We all know why they did that: because it was in accordance with the East's swallowing Seham's BS in full. Now the latest fantasy being sucked on east of the Mississippi is the LOA 84 snapback.

All you're getting is LOA 93 ad infinitim. Age 65 is here to stay. Nic is here to stay. And you horrendous work rules and payrates are here to stay until you decide to sign a joint contract which will include Nicolau in total. Take your time, as time is no longer on your side. The angry F/Os might be content making Mesa wages, but the vast majority of your captains are going to give up. And even if they don't, the chances are quite high that some sort of merger is coming down the pike. Nobody would have thought that GM and Chrylser would disappear eight months ago, yet that's essentially what has happened. There are too many airlines flying around too many seats. Something is going to give in this industry and when it does for LCC, the east will be the minority and the Nic will be the list.

That is your reality as of June 25, 2009. Get used to it. But feel free to take your time because as I just said, time is no longer your ally.

Aqua,

You sound angry. Below is my post on this forum from Thanksgiving of last year. I told you exactly what was going to happen back then. The west will never understand that the east will not vote in a contract that includes the NIC without a huge....and i mean huge pay raise.....it just isn't worth it.


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Find Member's Posts Posted on: Nov 27 2008, 08:58 PM


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Clear,

I've been thinking about this while digesting my second helping of turkey for the day. Honestly, what do you think the best case senario for the west would be as far as the outcome of this trial with Judge Wake? Best case in my opinion for you guys is that the judge issues an order for the Nicolau list to be included in any contract negotiations with no possiblity of appeal (He can't force the company to combine operations). It is possible he could issue damages payable to the west pilots. However, you will be paying dues by then and while your dues are for mx of the contract, that pretty much offsets any damages due to you. Even if you bankrupt the union, what does that get you? ALPA won't be back. There would be a new union and we would still have a contract to negotiate. The judge has already agreed that seperate ops are allowed, as he found in favor of the company when it came to furloughs. Until there is a contract negotiated, there will be no "effective" combined seniority list. Expect the company to stonewall negotiations (which they are already doing) Expect them to wait until the east can go section 6. Expect that to take an additional 18 to 24 months. That is a best case senario in my opinion. But hey....you get your Nicolau.....be it 4 or 5 years down the road. Again, I'm not trying to antagonize anyone. This is just what I see happening as a best case senario for the west.

Gunther

P.S. After writing this I read the USAPA Watch update. I think this clip echo's my sentiment. Here is the exerpt at the end of the update:

"Appeals to the Ninth Circuit can take years. If US Airways is fortunate enough to survive the latest recession, it isnt likely that Mr. Parker is going to wait for the Ninth Circuit to rule before moving forward with his business plans. The time for a more rational approach is long overdue. There must be a better way."

 

[Megasnoop]

Wonder why this part of Ellis never gets quoted...

Section 2, Eleventh does not authorize charging objecting employees for the union's general organizing efforts, or for expenses of litigation that is not incident to negotiating and administering the contract or to settling grievances and disputes arising in the bargaining unit.

It doesn't seem that defending against a DFR claim, which was not part of the fact base of Ellis, is "incident to negotiating and administering the contract".

Snoop, remember early in this debate over Nic when I brought up the DFR suit that arose from the Air Wisconsin/Mississippi Valley merger? You claimed that it didn't apply because one lone difference existed between that case and this - the Air Wisconsin pilots weren't successful in ousting ALPA. Yet you completely ignore the different fact base of other suits in attempt to make them apply here.

Jim

Jim, the "remember" game gets stale, but I quoted that 2 months ago. DFRs are "expenses of litigation" and in Ellis are germane "to negotiating and administering the contract."

Since you're quoting out of context, I'll quote in context, continuing on the part you failed to quote,
Litigation. The expenses of litigation incident to negotiating and administering the contract or to settling grievances and disputes arising in the bargaining unit are clearly chargeable to petitioners as a normal incident of the duties of the exclusive representative. The same is true of fair representation litigation arising within the unit, of jurisdictional disputes with other unions, and of any other litigation before agencies or in the courts that concerns bargaining unit employees and is normally conducted by the exclusive representative. Contrary to the view of the Court of Appeals, therefore, unless the Western Airlines bargaining unit is directly concerned, objecting employees need not share the costs of the union's challenge to the legality of the airline industry mutual aid pact;.

Is there any doubt in Addington that the bargaining unit is directly concerned? It was a 9-0 decision (8-1 if you consider Powell "filed an opinion concurring in part and dissenting in part"). AOL/AWAPPA not going to win on this. Wake wont touch it. The court went well beyond the narrow issue being appealed in their decision, with a blanket statement The same is true of fair representation litigation arising within the unit. They wanted the rules on germane expenses nailed down for the ages. To AOL, good luck.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Aqua,

You sound angry. Below is my post on this forum from Thanksgiving of last year. I told you exactly what was going to happen back then. The west will never understand that the east will not vote in a contract that includes the NIC without a huge....and i mean huge pay raise.....it just isn't worth it.

Well, if I sound angry then it's because the feigned ignorance that a lot of you Easties like to take is sooo silly. When you say things like: "The east has been telling you for over a year that we never guaranteed we could get rid of the NIC.....only that we could prevent a cram down," it is an outright lie as nobody once stood up and challenged Seham and Bradford. Now that the answer is clear, the crickets start coming out of the woodwork claiming that it was never about getting rid of the Nic entirely. Please.


As you can probably surmise from the proposed language from the judge, your musings about Section 6 are a nonstarter. The only ray of hope for you is an LOA 84 snapback, to which the company has said time and again won't happen. So the question becomes whose lawyer is better: Seham or Siegel.

That's an easy one.

If a majority of the East pilots want to stay on LOA 93 for the next ten years, then that is their perogative. But the fact of the matter was that your brethren were all over the West one year ago...(heck...three months ago!) saying that there was nothing we could do about a DOH cramdown. Obviously, that's not the case now. Furthermore, there will be little to no retirements over the coming five years. In the meantime, a change will be taking place in the airline industry on a scale and timeline never seen before. If anyone thinks the status quo is an option, I've got beachfront real estate for sale in Phoenix.

Good luck.

 

[aquagreen73s]

1) The west's vast reserve of love and concern for their "fellow pilots" is again properly noted.

Oh really? I must have missed the malicious suits against individual East pilots by the West.

The record is complete as to the East's integrity and committment to unionism. It's all about you guys, and screw everybody else. Malicious RICO suits, ignoring arbitrations, and doing struck work. The rest of the industry gets it now.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

and doing struck work.

your slip is showing

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

The record is complete as to the East's integrity

Integrity is not going against your priciples for monetary gain now is it? Join USAPA against your priciples to save your job, is that integrity? will you sell your soul so cheap?? You have all got to live with yourselves and I urge you to ignore the termination threats from the company and stand by your principles.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

When I was growing up in Brooklyn, we used to antagonize the kids on the next block and they would get very upset. We would yell at them "nah nah, nah nah, ha ha! But the trick was to pause after the second nah nah and raise your voice a few octaves for the ha ha. You see? :bleh:

 

[aquagreen73s]

Integrity is not going against your priciples for monetary gain now is it? Join USAPA against your priciples to save your job, is that integrity? will you sell your soul so cheap?? You have all got to live with yourselves and I urge you to ignore the termination threats from the company and stand by your principles.

With DOH now DOA, what's the point of not joining?

USAPA's days are numbered anyway as the freight train of reality is roaring down the tracks at full speed. It's interesting to comtemplate how this industry will look in a year. One thing will be certain: the NIC will be etched in stone.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

With DOH now DOA, what's the point of not joining?

They are trying to destroy your career and you are going to give them money? If that rubs you the wrong way then why are you doing it? To save your A**, thats why. For Sale: Integrity. SOLD!!!!

 

[aquagreen73s]

They are trying to destroy your career and you are going to give them money? If that rubs you the wrong way then why are you doing it? To save your A**, thats why. For Sale: Integrity. SOLD!!!!

No, USAPA is now harmless (and likely short lived). So why not join?

 

[EastUS]

One thing will be certain: the NIC will be etched in stone.

Pending appeal of course, (a small detail...I know) and only subject to contract ratification even if then. We evidently differ on what's "certain", or even reasonably predictable within the actual, versus imagined future.

In any and all human issues; Life experience has angled me more towards believing only when actually seeing.

You clearly differ therein, and possess a far higher confidence in the value of your predictions than I do mine, or anyone's, for that matter. As a favor then; I'll ask of you the following: Let us know at least the approximate date that the first west pilot will take an east seat....?