US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/24-6/30 Stay On Topic

[EastUS]

QUOTE (AWE_SHUCKS @ Jun 26 2009, 02:11 PM) *
They are trying to destroy your career and you are going to give them money? If that rubs you the wrong way then why are you doing it? To save your A**, thats why. For Sale: Integrity. SOLD!!!

No, USAPA is now harmless (and likely short lived). So why not join?

"harmless (and likely short lived)" hardly argues well for there being any actual benefit for you in joining. I believe I'll have to go with AWE SHUCKS on this one......

 

[luvthe9]

No, USAPA is now harmless (and likely short lived). So why not join?

Yea, go ahead and and don't pay your dues and have another glass of cactus coolaid!!!

 

[wopr21]

Actually, LOA 84 will be just fine for a temporary pay enhancement. Negotiable items would include work rules and benefits, some the west is "ahead of", others, not so much. The issue is, what is the west going to give up to get LOA 84 pay?

There's the question of the day

Would the west rather see the Nic or LOA 84 pay?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Since you're quoting out of context, I'll quote in context, continuing on the part you failed to quote,
Litigation. The expenses of litigation incident to negotiating and administering the contract or to settling grievances and disputes arising in the bargaining unit are clearly chargeable to petitioners as a normal incident of the duties of the exclusive representative. The same is true of fair representation litigation arising within the unit, of jurisdictional disputes with other unions, and of any other litigation before agencies or in the courts that concerns bargaining unit employees and is normally conducted by the exclusive representative. Contrary to the view of the Court of Appeals, therefore, unless the Western Airlines bargaining unit is directly concerned, objecting employees need not share the costs of the union's challenge to the legality of the airline industry mutual aid pact;.

An interesting tidbit, repeated from the Appeals Court decision. But what the Supreme Court held was:

"The Court of Appeals erred in holding that respondents were entitled to charge petitioners for their pro rata share of the union's organizing and litigating expenses, and that the former rebate scheme adequately protected the objecting employees from the misuse of their contributions. The judgment of the Court of Appeals is affirmed in part and reversed in part, and the case is remanded for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.

It is so ordered."

Jim

 

[jetjok1]

Yes, I must agree you guys are good and luring people into these endless spirals of nothingness, debating fictitious infractions casued by Nicolau and the west pilots. If you choose to label a post as flame bait, so be it, but you have partisan beliefs to begin with so your opinions are tainted anyway. I see frustration growing on both sides, mine coming from incessant road blocks being thrown up for no real reason and blocking progress on pay improvements and quality of life enhancements. I shake my head in disbelief to actually read east pilots think they are winning with this delay strategy. It has been four years now and we have to move forward at some point. Maybe you don't see it, however many out west do and we understand you cannot win by running out the clock. If you find that fact "flame bait", so be it.

Cheez, Prechilill, it must be nice to be perfect!

 

[aquagreen73s]

Yea, go ahead and and don't pay your dues and have another glass of cactus coolaid!!!

No, I say pay...and VOTE. Why not? DOH is DOA and the Nic is going to be engraved in granite in another week or so. Might as well collect enough votes and see if we can get some throttle time to demonstrate how running a union in a fair and equitable manner is supposed to be done. I think that with enough West pilots joining, there'll be enough on the East who are looking for a change. Maybe, maybe not.

 

[A320 Driver]

There's the question of the day

Would the west rather see the Nic or LOA 84 pay?

THERE IS NO WAY East will vote for a contract that includes the NIC that doesn't include AT LEAST an industry standard compensation package. Now ask yourself. Why would the management of this company negotiate such contract when all it will do is cost them money. I'll believe it when I see it. Kirby already said that no REAL negotiations will take place until all the appeals are dealt with. That was a glimpse into the future. They want CUTS not RAISES. They have all but backed out on their offer of parity + 3%. Real hard times hit this company and West will be hard pressed to keep themselves off of LOA93.

My guess is we get sold off in pieces before it's over with. Sorry...I have NO confidance in the people who run this outfit. Sooner or later they will run out of ways to borrow money.

Driver B)

 

[GuntherA320]

No, USAPA is now harmless (and likely short lived). So why not join?

How is USAPA any less harmless now than it was 6 months or a year ago? Did you have to not be part of the union to file a DFR? Aqua....you obviously are angry......I don't see anyone over here on the east that angry. Everyone I fly with seems to be pretty happy people. We have settled in. I see laughing in the crew rooms and generally the pilots seem pretty jovial. We don't want to live under LOA 93, however I don't think we have as many people obsessed with money over here as you guys do. Do we want to make more money? Absolutely......if it includes the NIC? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! If we vote for a contract as one entire unit, over time you may be able to garner enough votes to get a contract. It will take an attrition of pilots on the east for that to happen. Funny thing about that is that the few pilots here on the east that want a contract that badly are a few of the senior guys (JS being one of them) and they will be the first to go. On the other hand if we have seperate ratification east and west......well you guys may never see a new contract. I will be just fine on my LOA 93 wages. If the company goes bust tomorrow or merges with another carrier we will be ok......we've been there before. The Section 6 thing I mentioned last November doesn't come in to play either. It means that neither side can bargain seperately. That's fine by me. It also means the company can't implement a contract on either side outside of bankruptcy. We'll stay right where we are. Again.....fine by me and 90% of my coworkers.

No one that I know absolutely expected DOH. What we expected by voting in USAPA was to avoid the cramdown that was coming from ALPA national. We did that. Negotiating a 6 or 7 year fence after the NIC came out would have kept ALPA on this property (Remember age 60 extention had not been announced yet). It is entirely possible we would have had a contract by now. In 4 years you would have been free to exercise your seniority according to NIC and you'd have had a pay raise to boot. But I'll hand it to you and the west. You stuck to your principles and now you still won't be able to excercise your NIC seniority for at least another 4 years minimum. The fence is there whether you agreed to it or not. It reminds me of the stubborn child that won't eat his greenbeans so he can have ice cream. After he throws a temper tantrum and realizes he should have eaten his green beans the ice cream is all gone anyway. Aqua.....one of these days when you finally get to exercise your NIC seniority.....look back and ask yourself if it was worth it not to negotiate.

 

[EastUS]

THERE IS NO WAY East will vote for a contract that includes the NIC that doesn't include AT LEAST an industry standard compensation package.

Sorry...I have NO confidance in the people who run this outfit.

1) Agreed.

2) Agreed again = "Think of a number that's close to ZERO"......

 

[Megasnoop]

I am curious about the difference between the east pilots breaking their agreement to abide by binding arbitration and the west pilots joing USAPA to avoid termination.
Secondly, section 29 terminations will serve to mitigate in a small way the effect of Nic.

Bad linkage there, shucks. Again you make the assumption USAPA inherited what the East MEC agreed to. Answer to that on appeal. It was the East MEC, not USAPA. We saw how bad East MEC mangled arbitration. No wonder ALPAs gone. Meanwhile, Section 29 terminations will happen, only this time without drama at the gate. No mitigation for those too stupid to pay.

You are dreaming if you think that 90% of the East pilots (especially most of the captains) truly want to continue forever under LOA 93, if offered a considerably better contract. How long should every pilot and his/her family suffer, just to delay the inevitable court-ordered seniority integration for a short period of time? A much improved contract is possible for all pilots; it's definitely going to be time to move.

Your source? With LOA84 pay rates, $70M coming in, able to work to 65, pension revisited, LOA93 is more than tolerable. OUR source, those we fly with. Snark is right, shows how little the west knows about our contract.

Actually, LOA 84 will be just fine for a temporary pay enhancement. Negotiable items would include work rules and benefits, some the west is "ahead of", others, not so much. The issue is, what is the west going to give up to get LOA 84 pay?

USAPA appears to be well behind where ALPA left off negotiations. They don't seem to understand either west's scheduling section or the scheduling sections already tabled.

Not sure about being behind. With ALPA, we were essentially nowhere. ALPA even broke off talks. ALPA was canned before the company put The Kirby on the table. On scheduling, we’re getting cooperation from your best scheduling aces, Wxxxx and Jxxxx

The fact that the judge's order both mirrors the TA and is simple reduces the chances it will be overturned on appeal from low to extremely low. Though I was loath to make a prediction on the outcome of the Addington trial, I don't feel I am going very far out on a limb in predicting that USAPA's appeal is going to die a quick and certain death.

Wake didn’t hurt us much at all. Believe it or not, Harper’s deposing ALPA now, looking for that conspiracy and his damages money. Hope he finds it. Then you got the deep pocket, ALPA. And since we weren't the CBA and not talking with ALPA at all, you can DFR them. You filed the DFR within 6-month limit. Now you just have to prove ALPA belongs in it. We still got the Breeger ripeness disconnect. The appeal may lose, but it wont be quick.

So after 14 month of the usapa experiment. After giving up over $60,000.00. Costing this pilots group well over $2 million in legal cost. This is where we are.

DOH=DOA
USAPA= Nicolau
USAPA= Joint contract only. NO section 6.

So how is that working for you? Looks to me like we are worse off now than we were two years ago.

Huh? Dollar amount assumes we would have passed something 2 years ago. Your #1 negotiator kept re-opening closed sections, costing months delay. You really know how to pick ‘em. We might have voted on a single contract before the NIC, except for his stalling (and according to your conspiracy theory, ALPA Nat’ls stalling). The $2M? That’s $1M/side. We’ve paid our attorneys. Have you? DOH=DOA? Appeal will decide. USAPA=Joint contract only. NO section 6. That’s what we’ve been negotiating for since last fall, even though your sides been sniping that we failed to negotiate a separate contract for you. Overall, it seems to be working for us Ok. The Appeal, LOA84 will answer. We’ll get back to you on that next summer. Since Nic we retired 7%, you 2%. No question your worse off than 2 years ago.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I'm saying that the company can't impose a contract (other than by going into bankruptcy) because there can't be separate Section 6 negotiations if the judge's draft remedy stands.

The company can't impose a contract by going into bankruptcy. Lorenzo was the last one to take advantage of that loophole, which was subsequently closed.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Second, the remedy says, "shall immediately", I would love to be at the next negotiating session to see USAPA concede the Nic as their sect 22 and witness the company's reply.

No big deal, actually. Even if USAPA conceded the Nic, they can put closing Section 22 at the very end of the negotiations. After we get every other section closed with everything we want, then Secction 22 can be dealt with.....I conjecture maybe 12-14 year from now?

 

[BoeingBoy]

The company can't impose a contract by going into bankruptcy. Lorenzo was the last one to take advantage of that loophole, which was subsequently closed.

Technically you're right - the judge authorizes the imposition of a contract in bankruptcy after the company completes a number of requirements. I was just trying to keep it brief by not going into an explanation of that whole 1113 process.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

What did America West bring to the merger? Well, without them, you'd be the lumber guy at Home Depot right now.

And given what Parker has said time and time again, you'd be saying "Welcome to WalMart a gazillion times a day."

 

[nycbusdriver]

Technically you're right

I'm going to have a plaque made.