US Pilots' Labor Thread 5/26 to 6/2-- NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[Tiger 1050]

Well things can get better if we ever start working together on a contract. If the 190's had been lost there is NO way we would have gotten them back. I think it's better that we had captured them and work on the rates later just as we are doing. Nobody saw this divide coming at the time we had to decide and assumed the rates would be addressed long before now...

 

[Tiger 1050]

Thank you for your response. I do tend to get a little hot under the collar sometimes and I apologize if I was being rude.

Our management team for years skimmed the profits and then used the bankruptcy courts to trash our contracts and kill our pension funds. By that time our credit was rated zero and the employees were left holding an empty bag. The Board of Directors took no responsibility for any of it and should have been arrested.

We still have a great network and I have faith that it will all work out. But we do need to stop poking each other in the eye.

I've been around this board long enough to get a thick skin. 😉 I took no offense to your post. I think you and everyone else has a right to be upset with all that is going on. Mostly I blame an absent management team. I liken it to two kids fighting. Who's going to be the parent to step in and square it away... Neither side is going to back down and we need a third party to tell us how its going to go.

BTW I think most of the "eye poking" on this board is just to ruffle feathers. We can and will be adults when the occasion calls for it. Until then have fun here and don't take it to heart. 🙂

 

[Megasnoop]

Comments about the 190, since you brought it up...
The E190 wasn't supposed to be a replacement aircraft: it is.
The E190 was supposed to be a growth aircraft: it isn't.

Quite right. As best I remember, the West thought the 190s were growth aircraft, so they filed arbitration under the TA when all of them went East. They lost and got no slots. Before arbitration, East MEC offered West a compromise that could not be used by either side in NIC arbitration as precedent. The offer was they get 1/3 the 190 positions, but using DOH placement. If I got any of that wrong, sorry in advance.

In the west the payrates were tied together with the airplanes. We on the west could have rejected the rates but that would have also meant rejecting the aircraft. The E-190 was already on it's way. Would you have found E-190s in Mesa livery more desirable?

airplane delivery was tied to pay rate approval by both East and West. Either side rejecting the pay rates, then no airplanes. I wasnt an ALPA member then, but I think the rates passed by a 90+% vote on both sides.

ALPA screwed this up long ago when they decided to use scope to control the size of the RPC (Regional Pay Cancer).

If ALPA had instead done everything in their power to get the payrates for regional aircraft up to an acceptable level it really would not matter who was flying them.

Exactly, Able. Spot on! I take back all things I ever said about you! Youve got a good handle on ALPA. And ALPA thinks theyv got a guaranteed 1700 West votes when they try to remove USAPA?

Editorial to West pilots, remember who was the CBA that ropa-doped and delayed presenting the NIC and who ran the Rice Committee, Blue Ribbon Committee, Wye River. By the time ALPA gets another run on at representation, the Addington appeal should be over. You inherit this mess in just a few years with a majority. Youv got the chance to control your own destiny down the road, free from ALPA interference if you keep them off property. Comments welcome.

The payrates can be re-negotiated. Once a certain gauge is outsourced to a small jet provider it is nearly impossible to recover that flying.

Re-negotiable payrates is debatable. I guess anything is negotiable, especially when you have a new CBA in town (For this post, Ill keep the NIC being negotiable out of this. The Appeals court will decide). The rate should be negotiable, along with everything else in the contract. The problem is pricing yourself out of the ball game. Regardless of how we feel about large RJ pay, the company has to compete in the market. The other problem is the TA language (Attachment D is the 190 pay rates).

Duration of Terms of Section VIII, Paragraph A and Attachment D
Neither party may serve a notice of intended change under Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act that covers or applies to Section VIII., paragraph A and Attachment D of this Letter of Agreement except in accordance with the following:
The parties will commence bargaining for new rates associated with EMB 190 aircraft no earlier than June 1, 2015 and no later than July 1, 2015. If the parties have not reached a tentative agreement for such rates by January 1, 2016, and the basic agreement in place on January 1, 2016 is:

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Yes, indeed. Not only did the company break it off in our tailpipe on the rates, the made it an independent agreement running til 2015....

Yep, the price is indeed high to recapture that plane...I only wish the j@#^(@@#! who GAVE it away were paying that price.

There is a possible fix. however. It requires some considerable leverage over the company to do it though. The RJ scope violation comes to mind.

Hmmmm.

 

[ableoneable]

Editorial to West pilots, remember who was the CBA that ropa-doped and delayed presenting the NIC and who ran the Rice Committee, Blue Ribbon Committee, Wye River. By the time ALPA gets another run on at representation, the Addington appeal should be over. You inherit this mess in just a few years with a majority. Youv got the chance to control your own destiny down the road, free from ALPA interference if you keep them off property. Comments welcome.

The debate is raging on the west side.

No one is excited about ALPA. Even before the merger fiasco most of our group did not feel that ALPA had our best interests at heart. We were welcome to pay our dues but it was pretty clear that the interests of UAL and Delta were what ALPA national was all about.

That said, any union is only as strong as its membership. We truly are ALPA or USAPA or whomever.

I see instances in which east pilots blame ALPA for things that were clearly the fault of either their local leadership or the "let my daddy vote" crowd. It would not have mattered what name was on the union building during the rush to give things away.

The teamsters have made a couple of presentations to people on our side and they have been telling us what we want to hear. On the other hand I am sure that when they start making presentations to the East they will be doing a Seeham imitation and also telling your side exactly what they think you want to hear.

A strong in house union would be my preference in a perfect world. However, what we have is nowhere near perfect.

I am sure that USAPA, or any independent union controlled by the east, will spend a preponderance of their time and energy on drawing up C&Rs to mitigate the intent of the Nicolau award. Therefore an independent union makes little sense to a west pilot.

If and when the time comes I will hold my nose and vote for ALPA (assuming Prater is gone).

Re-negotiable payrates is debatable. I guess anything is negotiable, especially when you have a new CBA in town (For this post, Ill keep the NIC being negotiable out of this. The Appeals court will decide). The rate should be negotiable, along with everything else in the contract. The problem is pricing yourself out of the ball game. Regardless of how we feel about large RJ pay, the company has to compete in the market. The other problem is the TA language (Attachment D is the 190 pay rates).

Duration of Terms of Section VIII, Paragraph A and Attachment D
Neither party may serve a notice of intended change under Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act that covers or applies to Section VIII., paragraph A and Attachment D of this Letter of Agreement except in accordance with the following:
The parties will commence bargaining for new rates associated with EMB 190 aircraft no earlier than June 1, 2015 and no later than July 1, 2015. If the parties have not reached a tentative agreement for such rates by January 1, 2016, and the basic agreement in place on January 1, 2016 is:

Most people who talk about this issue do lose sight of that 2015 pay-rate lock. Absent some piece of super leverage coming our way, we will probably have to live with those rates until 2015.

As Nicstole has pointed out that was simply the price that had to be paid to get those airplanes in-house.

Given the choice again today; take those rates or send those airplanes to Mesa, I would have voted for the side letter again.

On the bright side it may be 2015 (assuming USAir is still around) before we get around to a new CBA anyway. The rates will come up eventually but we had to get control of that flying.

The best thing that ALPA national can do for all of us is to get the pay rates up to realistic levels everywhere; your Colgans, Mesas etc and kill the Gulfstream Internationals.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The idea was to keep them away from Mesa.

And the "rocket scientists" that Poug Darker was lamenting were responsible for that - as several posts have stated. The line pilots played their part by ratifying the pay rate - also as several posts have stated.

So you all need to decide which it is - another screw-up by the "rocket scientists" which would include the pilots since they ratified the pay or successfully keeping the 190's mainline albeit at the cost of an unsatisfactory pay rate to hopefully be negotiated upward in the future.

Jim

 

[prechilill]

In the west the payrates were tied together with the airplanes. We on the west could have rejected the rates but that would have also meant rejecting the aircraft.

The E-190 was already on it's way.

Would you have found E-190s in Mesa livery more desirable?


ALPA screwed this up long ago when they decided to use scope to control the size of the RPC (Regional Pay Cancer).

If ALPA had instead done everything in their power to get the payrates for regional aircraft up to an acceptable level it really would not matter who was flying them.

UAL actually had a chance to do this. The company wanted to bring the RJ flying in-house (and a lot of the rank in file were for this) but the UAL MEC told management that all UAL mainline pilots had to earn six figures and the airplanes remained on the outside.

The payrates can be re-negotiated. Once a certain gauge is outsourced to a small jet provider it is nearly impossible to recover that flying.

The arrogance of the UAL MEC went much further than that. Let's take a look at Air Wisconsin and the seniority integration between the two pilot groups in the early 90's, shall we? Oh, that's right, a seniority integration never occurred because the ARW MEC signed a side letter agreeing to NOT integrate the two pilot groups even though they were owned by the same company, sharing routes and UAL was the exclusive marketer of seats on all Air Wisconsin flights. Low and behold, after ARW was sent to the slaughter house and HALF the pilot group was furloughed, UAL took precious landing slots the 146 fleet had at ORD. Well, the story has a happy ending, because the UAL MEC was kind enough to push UAL to interview all the ARW pilots. How nice- take your job, planes, routes and landing slots and you get a preferential interview, just like the Embry Riddle graduates.
So, how did this end? Every single ARW pilot was hired by United and they all lived happily ever after. The End.

No, not every pilot was hired, that was a little exaggeration on my part. Sorry! But UAL did hire four ARW pilots! Interesting, though, three of the four were ARW ALPA reps who were instrumental in signing off on the "no, we are not interested in seniority integration between ARW/ UAL". Now, these three guys lived happily ever after. THE END.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

So you all need to decide which it is - another screw-up by the "rocket scientists" which would include the pilots since they ratified the pay or successfully keeping the 190's mainline albeit at the cost of an unsatisfactory pay rate to hopefully be negotiated upward in the future.
Jim

Just to put a final torque on this for you, it IS good that the 190's are on the property.

Newsflash: they WERE on the property until AAA MEC handed them over in the MDA sale.

The bolded part of your post should never have had to be addressed.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Just to put a final torque on this for you, it IS good that the 190's are on the property.

Newsflash: they WERE on the property until AAA MEC handed them over in the MDA sale.

The bolded part of your post should never have had to be addressed.

I thought the 175's were sold on the MDA sale.

 

[Megasnoop]

The debate is raging on the west side.
No one is excited about ALPA. Even before the merger fiasco most of our group did not feel that ALPA had our best interests at heart. We were welcome to pay our dues but it was pretty clear that the interests of UAL and Delta were what ALPA national was all about.
I see instances in which east pilots blame ALPA for things that were clearly the fault of either their local leadership or the "let my daddy vote" crowd. It would not have mattered what name was on the union building during the rush to give things away.

With the rumored UAL merger, who do you think ALPA will be protecting? ALPA may pay for UAL, but under McCaskill-Bond, they cant meddle or stall presenting the arbitration award to the company. The only merger under M-B (two different unions) was East-West ground handlers. That one went straight DOH. Not our deal and Im not trying to resurrect the current NIC debate. The courts will decide that. Weve already seen ALPA merger policy in action and Idont think East or West wants to deal with it on the next merger.

Internally, both sides always going to have our various factions, but when outside dangers come up, both east and west circle the wagons. Maybe we"ll even do it together the next time. No telling what would have happened if ALPA hadnt been on property in our East chaos of the early 00s. One thing, if we were in house then, there wouldnt have been any cramdowns. Whatever we ended up with would have been fully vetted and voted on.

The teamsters have made a couple of presentations to people on our side and they have been telling us what we want to hear. On the other hand I am sure that when they start making presentations to the East they will be doing a Seeham imitation and also telling your side exactly what they think you want to hear. A strong in house union would be my preference in a perfect world. However, what we have is nowhere near perfect. I am sure that USAPA, or any independent union controlled by the east, will spend a preponderance of their time and energy on drawing up C&Rs to mitigate the intent of the Nicolau award. Therefore an independent union makes little sense to a west pilot. If and when the time comes I will hold my nose and vote for ALPA (assuming Prater is gone).

Any union would promise anything to get our $10M/yr dues. Teamsters could try to get votes in a representation election, since theyre not in the AFL-CIO any more. Even if they still were, theyd just be competing with ALPA for the property. Under current USAPA, we keep all our dues money, no one telling us what to do with it. On the Seham thing, hes not a union. He didnt come to us to organize. We hired his firm. What we have now will never be perfect. Until we have substantial West membership, your not going to ever have much input. NIC excepted, we cant read your minds. Not joining is your decision. Bad one, I think.

The Appeals court will determine how USAPA negotiates. Actually, Wake will determine while on appeal. If we lose, our NAC better not go down any road but set by court. Bringing back ALPA before Prater is gone wont happen, unless hes recalled. Next de-cert vote could be April 2010. His term is over January 2011. Not to worry, DALs Le Moak will be elected ALPA Pres next year.

The best thing that ALPA national can do for all of us is to get the pay rates up to realistic levels everywhere; your Colgans, Mesas etc and kill the Gulfstream Internationals.

With Ex-ALPA President Babbitt heading the FAA, maybe inexperienced Colgan crews wont be killing passengers. Without decent career pay, you end up with low quality/low hour JuCo graduates flying the public around under the guise of being mainline. Anyone who read the NMBs prelim on the Buffalo crash knows how that accident happened. BTW, good points, civil debate. El Snoopo

 

[Megasnoop]

The arrogance of the UAL MEC went much further than that.

Dang, Lill, your such a cynic. I cant believe Im agreeing with you. Maybe if we merge with UAL, theyll give us all interviews. "MANY are called, FEW are chosen." DAL MEC protected certain Pan Am MEC types, that DFR costing ALPA over $50M. Weve all been burned enough by ALPA. I dont see them back here any time in the 15 years left in my career. Snooper

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

I thought the 175's were sold on the MDA sale.

At the time of the MDA sale (recall, this was during the BK exit/merger money phase)) the only aircraft in service was the E-170. MDA/USAirways had options for 175's and 190's. After Air Wisconsin was shown the door as Prechillil correctly discussed, they coughed up $125 million for PHL flying the CRJ-200. Republic/Wexford group coughed up $115 million for all MDA assets, parts, and landing slots in LGA and DCA. Parker was still looking for some more money to exit BK...he called Ornstein at Mesa to see if he was onboard. JO said No. He may regret that one when the exclusive RJ feed for AWA contract expires shortly. The AAA scope was amended to allow for Mesa's CRJ9's that had been flying for AWA in PHX. Still had a 93 hull limit to all RJ's over 50 seats though...(the one the company is in violation of as we speak)
Other $$ sources showed up: Airbus, Air Canada, and others..and the $$ for BK emergence/merger with AWA was found.

As a result, Republic inherited the options for the 175...and the 190...(so they drew up a payscale for it) AAA MEC wrote the 190 off as collateral damage. The 175 is an 86 seat plane (just like Mesa's CR9)...it falls under the scope limit of 93 hulls. The 190 is a whole other matter.

AWA MEC brought it back on property.

You know the rest.

regards

 

[Tiger 1050]

At the time of the MDA sale (recall, this was during the BK exit attempt) the only aircraft in service was the E-170. MDA/USAirways had options for 175's and 190's. After Air Wisconsin was shown the door as Prechillil correctly discussed, they coughed up $125 million for PHL flying the CRJ-200. Republic/Wexford group coughed up $115 million for all MDA assets, parts, and landing slots in LGA and DCA. Parker was still looking for some more money to exit BK...he called Ornstein at Mesa to see if he was onboard. JO said No. He may regret that one when the exclusive RJ feed for AWA contract expires shortly. The AAA scope was amended to allow for Mesa's CRJ9's that had been flying for AWA in PHX. Still had a 93 hull limit to all RJ's over 50 seats though...(the one the company is in violation of as we speak)

As a result, Republic inherited the options for the 175...and the 190...(so they drew up a payscale for it) AAA MEC wrote the 190 off as collateral damage. The 175 is an 86 seat plane (just like Mesa's CR9)...it falls under the scope limit of 93 hulls. The 190 is a whole other matter.

AWA MEC brought it back on property.

You know the rest.

regards

Thanks. Yeah my recollection was not as informed as yours seems to be...

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Thanks. Yeah my recollection was not as informed as yours seems to be...

No problem

 

[BoeingBoy]

I thought the 175's were sold on the MDA sale.

Actually, just the 170's since that was all that was on the property or ready to be delivered at that time.

As usual, a little revisionist history is at work. The (East) pilots ratified the agreement that allowed Republic to purchase the 170's. That agreement allowed not just Mesa but "any affiliate" to operate those. Prior to that, only MDA could operate RJ's that large.

When the deal was reached with Republic, the only burning question at the East MEC level was whether the change of control language concerning MDA would be triggered - the subject of a grievance that the company won.

During this entire episode, the only inclusion for the 190's was if the company couldn't take delivery on any ordered, and none were ever actually on order until after the merger was announced and the TA specified that the 190's would be mainline. So the East pilots share blame for allowing the 190's at affiliates (although none were ordered when ratification of that agreement occurred).

Jim