US Pilots' Labor Thread 5/26 to 6/2-- NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[Pacemaker]

I don't think a single pay rate for an airline flying the 190 & 330 is going to fly. I do think the rates listed above are a start, though - for E-190 F/O's.

 

[A320 Driver]

flbynite,
I never meant to insinuate that the pilots of either airline had any real control of costs. I was simply pointing out that the two airlines when separate had costs that would not even put them in the same galaxy. AWA had costs that ranged from 7.5-8.5 cents per mile. While AAA had costs north of 14 cents per mile. It's true that AAA had more revenue coming in but was obviously unable to compete once the Southwest effect showed up. AWA however had minimal exposure to those "lucrative" markets and primarily focused its route structure in the west. While AWA also competed head-to-head with SWA it had similar costs and could therefore compete with SWA and do well. Keep in mind that AWA's two hubs were also SWA hubs. Our exposure to the SWA effect was much greater...

You can claim that everyone with low payroll can and should do better but you shoot holes in your argument with that example. Here's why. AAA had their contracts gutted. They were literally the lowest paid of like sized carriers. So how is it then that they could not get there costs under control? There is some other issue that drives these costs. The only thing I can think of is the focus on the east coast. While it's true that there is many profitable markets out east, I believe the costs of doing business out there is very high making the actual profit marginal when one considers what it cost to participate.

So all-in-all I was not attempting to trumpet anything. Actually I wanted to illustrate why in essence the west "suddenly" became a dead zone. I do not believe, nor blame the east for this. I blame a management team with no vision and no ability to make our system work. Unfortunately some on this board quickly forget their history and are rash to point out our plight in the west all the while forgetting they still have the cancer. AWA was not sick. Not until we got mixed up with AAA. Of course I hope you read that from a costs perspective. It's not meant to be a dig at anyone out east...

Hope that provides a little context for you.

You make a good argument. I want to add one other thing to the mix. There was a time when our CASM was around 8 cents. Then management decided to break the backs of the unions and start affiliate flying, the cost of which was in some cases was twice that of mainline. I don't know what those costs are today but AAA has the largest percentage of affiliate flying of any carrier. That and we own nothing. We pay somebody for every piece of equipment we use. The strange thing is, we still turn away business and can't make money. How is it that we are oversold on flights and can't make money. It makes NO sense to me. It smells of incompetant management. But in the end, win lose or draw, managers will walk away with their pockets full.

Scary times. We are witnessing the nationalization of the USA. We are spending money we don't have and nobody is accountable. Banks took money they can't pay back. Fuel is headed north and the problems with speculators has not been corrected.

All the while these two pilot groups fight each other and some are even gullible enough to think we could wrestle a contract out of AAA. Management does not want a contract. It will cost them money they don't have because they don't know how run the airline.

Vent valve closed...

A320 Driver <_<

 

[88 B.T.D.]

Paying F/O 90% of what a captain makes is not going to happen.

Last, thanks for the pay cut. No thank you. The F/O's get a small raise in total. The captains take a cut in rate and big cut in total.

Why is this good for the west?

No thanks there was no "change in paradigm" just more of the same. The east wants everything.

That is the point of the paradigm shift. Paying the Capt only 10% more makes a backward moving company tolerable. (i.e. downgrade of seat/equipment to E-190 not major financial shakup). The longer pay scales make any pay cut taken by a Capt now whole and better within 2-5 years.

The biggest thing is there is much less incentive to move domiciles for a small upgrade in pay.

 

[Poug Darker]

Comments about the 190, since you brought it up...
The E190 wasn't supposed to be a replacement aircraft: it is.
The E190 was supposed to be a growth aircraft: it isn't.
The recalled furloughs were supposed to be in Group 2 aircraft: they aren't.
The new hires that were sold a 'permanent' position here: aren't here anymore.
The rocket scientists that crafted the side letter authorizing E190's under these conditions: need to have their heads examined.

 

[ussnark]

First, there is no negotiating on the Nicolau. The list will be used for everything.

Not according to the west attorney.

It is unfair to the new hires that might come here only to provide furlough fodder for people that don't want to get furloughed again. You guys did not like when it happened to you why would you want to do it someone else.

Indeed, every new-hire class endures the possibility of furlough. It is part of this industry.

Last, thanks for the pay cut. No thank you. The F/O's get a small raise in total. The captains take a cut in rate and big cut in total. So as we have seen all along the east wants it all. Shifting all the money to the east. So a 2% raise in retirement, a pay cut and shifting the rest to the east. Why is this good for the west?

It will make the west less costly and slow west furloughs. That would be good, right? Also, if you intend to adhere to management paradigms, then it only seems right for the west to sacrifice for the east salaries.

No thanks there was no "change in paradigm" just more of the same. The east wants everything.

You are not a line pilot, are you?

 

[BoeingBoy]

The rocket scientists that crafted the side letter authorizing E190's under these conditions: need to have their heads examined.

Which says something about the line pilots that voted for those conditions.....

Jim

 

[hp_fa]

The Class action is over and the damages are for the class.

Actually, I am not sure that it is "over" quite yet. The 9th Circuit would not hear an interlocutory appeal of the class issue, but I don't think that prevents the issue being rev-visited in the appeal that will be ripe once Judge Wake enters the permanent injunction and declaratory judgment. Whether that issue is indeed appealed will be a tactical decision by Seham because he is limited in the length of his Brief.

 

[Hawkhunter]

AWE_SHUCKS,

I feel compelled to inform you that the east did not buy you insurance. It is my understanding that it was purchased by USAPA, who raised the money through an assessment of its members. It is also my understanding that there are West members of USAPA.

So, if the union can get its priorities straight, (first priority in my opinion should be to get recalls happening) and you accept a recall, and are lucky enough to ever fly with a former West captain, a good way to break the ice might be to say thanks for that assessment.

How many of you out WEST are paying an assessment?

 

[Hawkhunter]

Which says something about the line pilots that voted for those conditions.....

Jim

The idea was to keep them away from Mesa. So before you slam the East line pilots again, which is better jobs on mainline or jobs at MESA. If your ALPA didnt give everythig away we wouldnt be begging for scraps.

 

[flybynite]

flbynite,
I never meant to insinuate that the pilots of either airline had any real control of costs. I was simply pointing out that the two airlines when separate had costs that would not even put them in the same galaxy. AWA had costs that ranged from 7.5-8.5 cents per mile. While AAA had costs north of 14 cents per mile. It's true that AAA had more revenue coming in but was obviously unable to compete once the Southwest effect showed up. AWA however had minimal exposure to those "lucrative" markets and primarily focused its route structure in the west. While AWA also competed head-to-head with SWA it had similar costs and could therefore compete with SWA and do well. Keep in mind that AWA's two hubs were also SWA hubs. Our exposure to the SWA effect was much greater...

You can claim that everyone with low payroll can and should do better but you shoot holes in your argument with that example. Here's why. AAA had their contracts gutted. They were literally the lowest paid of like sized carriers. So how is it then that they could not get there costs under control? There is some other issue that drives these costs. The only thing I can think of is the focus on the east coast. While it's true that there is many profitable markets out east, I believe the costs of doing business out there is very high making the actual profit marginal when one considers what it cost to participate.

So all-in-all I was not attempting to trumpet anything. Actually I wanted to illustrate why in essence the west "suddenly" became a dead zone. I do not believe, nor blame the east for this. I blame a management team with no vision and no ability to make our system work. Unfortunately some on this board quickly forget their history and are rash to point out our plight in the west all the while forgetting they still have the cancer. AWA was not sick. Not until we got mixed up with AAA. Of course I hope you read that from a costs perspective. It's not meant to be a dig at anyone out east...

Hope that provides a little context for you.

Thank you for your response. I do tend to get a little hot under the collar sometimes and I apologize if I was being rude.

Our management team for years skimmed the profits and then used the bankruptcy courts to trash our contracts and kill our pension funds. By that time our credit was rated zero and the employees were left holding an empty bag. The Board of Directors took no responsibility for any of it and should have been arrested.

We still have a great network and I have faith that it will all work out. But we do need to stop poking each other in the eye.

 

[Megasnoop]

The rocket scientists that crafted the side letter authorizing E190's under these conditions: need to have their heads examined.

In this case, the rocket scientists were ALPA and two idiot MECs. It wasnt a side letter. It was part of the TA.

Which says something about the line pilots that voted for those conditions.....Jim

Place blame where it belongs, Jim. This was negotiated by ALPA. The only thing that line pilots voted on was the rates, AFTER the TA was already in place and with an ALPA gun pointed at their heads. The entire E-190 concept, including conditions, was negotiated by ALPA in the TA, no rank and file input at all. From the TA,

VIII. Other Terms
A. The following terms apply to operation of the EMB 190 aircraft:
1.EMB 190 aircraft will be operated only by US Airways, America West, both carriers, or the Single Carrier.

I was an ALPA objector at the time, so dont blame me.

Changing subjects, the Pension Investigation Assessment passed by over 82%. This another sign of East solidarity and another blow to the ALPAphlyes who dream for the days of old. The truth will come out, ALPAs worst nightmare. BTW, no West pilot will be assessed a cent for this investigation. snoop

 

[Phoenix]

The idea was to keep them away from Mesa. So before you slam the East line pilots again, which is better jobs on mainline or jobs at MESA. If your ALPA didnt give everythig away we wouldnt be begging for scraps.

The 190 or Mesa? ...Can you give me a few more minutes to think about it?



Mesa or ALPA? Mesa.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

In this case, the rocket scientists were ALPA and two idiot MECs. It wasnt a side letter. It was part of the TA.



Place blame where it belongs, Jim. This was negotiated by ALPA. The only thing that line pilots voted on was the rates, AFTER the TA was already in place and with an ALPA gun pointed at their heads. The entire E-190 concept, including conditions, was negotiated by ALPA in the TA, no rank and file input at all. From the TA,

VIII. Other Terms
A. The following terms apply to operation of the EMB 190 aircraft:
1.EMB 190 aircraft will be operated only by US Airways, America West, both carriers, or the Single Carrier.

I was an ALPA objector at the time, so dont blame me.

Changing subjects, the Pension Investigation Assessment passed by over 82%. This another sign of East solidarity and another blow to the ALPAphlyes who dream for the days of old. The truth will come out, ALPAs worst nightmare. BTW, no West pilot will be assessed a cent for this investigation. snoop

Yes, ALPA indeed.

For Jim...since there is now finger-pointing about the 190...lets just lay it all out, shall we?

EAST ALPA initially gave the 190 away to Republic in their purchase of the MDA assets...(thats why they have a 190 payrate in their CBA)....This was again ALPA stooges giving even MORE flying to express carriers'....anybody involved in that debacle should be ashamed.

In light of the merger, the WEST ALPA unit decided to reel the 190 back onto the mainline and scope it off....THE WEST...NOT THE EAST. I say: good for them.

Naturally, the company was more than willing to offer poverty wages on the equipment since it was being scoped back onto the mainline...(read: NO LEVERAGE)

NONE of this was part of a vote by the group...this is all in the TA.

Those involved on the East who gave it away are ultimately to blame for the poverty payscales on it...it was the price of bringing it back to the mainline...

Once again...thanks for nothing EAST ALPA.

 

[ableoneable]

Comments about the 190, since you brought it up...
The E190 wasn't supposed to be a replacement aircraft: it is.
The E190 was supposed to be a growth aircraft: it isn't.
The rocket scientists that crafted the side letter authorizing E190's under these conditions: need to have their heads examined.

In the west the payrates were tied together with the airplanes. We on the west could have rejected the rates but that would have also meant rejecting the aircraft.

The E-190 was already on it's way.

Would you have found E-190s in Mesa livery more desirable?


ALPA screwed this up long ago when they decided to use scope to control the size of the RPC (Regional Pay Cancer).

If ALPA had instead done everything in their power to get the payrates for regional aircraft up to an acceptable level it really would not matter who was flying them.

UAL actually had a chance to do this. The company wanted to bring the RJ flying in-house (and a lot of the rank in file were for this) but the UAL MEC told management that all UAL mainline pilots had to earn six figures and the airplanes remained on the outside.

The payrates can be re-negotiated. Once a certain gauge is outsourced to a small jet provider it is nearly impossible to recover that flying.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

In the west the payrates were tied together with the airplanes. We on the west could have rejected the rates but that would have also meant rejecting the aircraft.

The E-190 was already on it's way.

Would you have found E-190s in Mesa livery more desirable?


ALPA screwed this up long ago when they decided to use scope to control the size of the RPC (Regional Pay Cancer).

If ALPA had instead done everything in their power to get the payrates for regional aircraft up to an acceptable level it really would not matter who was flying them.

UAL actually had a chance to do this. The company wanted to bring the RJ flying in-house (and a lot of the rank in file were for this) but the UAL MEC told management that all UAL mainline pilots had to earn six figures and the airplanes remained on the outside.

The payrates can be re-negotiated. Once a certain gauge is outsourced to a small jet provider it is nearly impossible to recover that flying.

This is nearly 100% correct.


The West are to be congratulated for recapturing this equipment that the EAST ALPA idiots freely gave away....the price for the recapturing is the outrageous payrates offered by the company.