US Pilots' Labor Thread 5/26 to 6/2-- NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[aquagreen73s]

I am looking forward to reading the Appellant's Brief so that I can then see what error the appellant's attorneys allege and how they craft their Brief.

One thing which nobody seems to be talking about is Seham's appellate experience, or should we say lack of appellate experience. I know you know this HP, but what a lot of lay folks don't seem to understand is that the practice of law is very specialized. Trial work is entirely different from appellate work which is entirely different from adminsitrative law which is entirely different from transaction work, etc. To give Seham credit, he outright admitted at a sidebar that he has little trial experience. Of course, that showed but not really because of his actual trial performance, but rather it was obvious in all of his pretrial work. Appellate work is a whole different animal yet what I find amazing is that he is basically holding his firm out as being quite capable of handling this appeal. Any decent attorney would urge the client to find a top notch appellate attorney - someone like Judge Wake used to be. But alas, that means no $$$. So there you go . . .

 

[flybynite]

Crane....Denny Crane Whoops.....what we need is Martin Shore. Ha!!!..........What a hoot.

 

[hp_fa]

One thing which nobody seems to be talking about is Seham's appellate experience, or should we say lack of appellate experience. I know you know this HP, but what a lot of lay folks don't seem to understand is that the practice of law is very specialized. Trial work is entirely different from appellate work which is entirely different from adminsitrative law which is entirely different from transaction work, etc. To give Seham credit, he outright admitted at a sidebar that he has little trial experience. Of course, that showed but not really because of his actual trial performance, but rather it was obvious in all of his pretrial work. Appellate work is a whole different animal yet what I find amazing is that he is basically holding his firm out as being quite capable of handling this appeal. Any decent attorney would urge the client to find a top notch appellate attorney - someone like Judge Wake used to be. But alas, that means no $$$. So there you go . . .

The specialization of lawyers is true. There are attorneys, especially at the larger law firms, who do nothing but write and argue appeals. The folks who do trial work have their plates full doing trials, learning about jurors as the psychology of jurors and jury selection and keeping up with nuances and changes to the Rules of Evidence. Heck, in really large firm you have attorneys who only do discovery and pretrial issues. So yes, it is very specialized.

My money is on Nick Grannath doing the actual writing of any brief. He struck me as the writer of the Seham crew and he also seemed to handle oral arguments fairly well. Of course Seham will be the first signer of the Brief, but that doesn't mean he did the lion's part of the actual writing.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

If I were you, I'd gather all your buddies out there and start attending church with a previously unseen fervor....it is your side that is and will be behind the eight-ball going forward.

Oh Lord, what will you say when you don't get an appeal?

Remember Baghdad Bob?

So, what makes you think, after being soundly defeated that you somehow won't be further defeated? What new evidence does USAPA have? What part of "binding" don't you get?

USAPA reminds me of a hack lawyer I'm dealing with regarding a term I made. Even after losing, he keeps putting nuttier and nuttier accusations out there, desperately hoping that we somehow get scared of him and his parade of losing. It does crack me up.

 

[Richard]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am very disappointed that so many of you don't understand the meaning of NO PERSONAL COMMENTS.

I just deleted 4 posts including a rather lengthy one, which refer specifically to another member--the use of a name, regardless of how it is disguised is specifically prohibited, as is the discussion of other specific posters.

We will continue to delete posts which violate the rules without comment, and the posters are subject to suspension.

Please adhere to the rules of the board.

Thank you.

 

[exB717Flyer]

How can you get damages without a joint contract?

The second part of the bifurcated DFR trial is scheduled to take place on August 17. It's to determine the compensatory damages from USAPA's illegal actions against the West pilots. It has nothing to do with a joint contract or lack thereof.

 

[westcoastflyer]

The second part of the bifurcated DFR trial is scheduled to take place on August 17. It's to determine the compensatory damages from USAPA's illegal actions against the West pilots. It has nothing to do with a joint contract or lack thereof.

Speaking of the DFR Trial, since Judge Wake is on vacation, does anyone know when the "remedy" is going to be announced?

 

[cleardirect]

Speaking of the DFR Trial, since Judge Wake is on vacation, does anyone know when the "remedy" is going to be announced?

Late June.

I expect it to be a little more complicated then just section 22 is the Nicolau. He could have knocked that out in 5 minutes.

Look for something "interesting".

 

[Elevation]

The second part of the bifurcated DFR trial is scheduled to take place on August 17. It's to determine the compensatory damages from USAPA's illegal actions against the West pilots. It has nothing to do with a joint contract or lack thereof.

Isn't that trial for just the plaintiffs of the Addington case or does it encompass all west pilots? I was under the assumption that there would be a class action filed after the Aug 17th trial is over. Can anybody clear this up?

 

[A320 Driver]

Isn't that trial for just the plaintiffs of the Addington case or does it encompass all west pilots? I was under the assumption that there would be a class action filed after the Aug 17th trial is over. Can anybody clear this up?
B)

Seems like many are licking their lips waiting for damages, translated $$$.

If the company was smart, they would liquidate...sell off the parts. Every $ in damages just fuels the hate brewing between East and West. This will NEVER be a unified outfit. Maybe another bankruptcy is in order.

We sign a contract, it just gives them more to take back later. What's the point?

A320 Driver B)

 

[prechilill]

Seems like many are licking their lips waiting for damages, translated $$$.

If the company was smart, they would liquidate...sell off the parts. Every $ in damages just fuels the hate brewing between East and West. This will NEVER be a unified outfit. Maybe another bankruptcy is in order.

We sign a contract, it just gives them more to take back later. What's the point?

A320 Driver B)

Monday GM probably files CH11. This economic downturn is just getting going. Gold is skyrocketing back to $1000, the Fed is printing monopoly money in a vain attempt to jumpstart things and mortgage rates are climbing quickly. Strong companies with lean balance sheets will survive, high debt, 14 cent CASM airlines will not. USAir doesn't work- even in good economic times it was marginal at best. The Titanic is going down.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

Just to change the tone....an option to change the stalemate or status quo ante: No bump/flush. Contract uses Nic for equipment bid, vacation bid. Uses LOS for any future furloughs or (a 2 East for 1 West basis). Must have minimum of 36 vacaton days, 12% retirement, and 80 or less max block (85 flex), same min block hours/frames.
However we completely change the paradigm for pay. This lessens incentive to move or change equipment and therefore saves company in training. It also lets them buy and fly whatever equipment they want, big or small.
Suggested year pay any equipment as follows:
1-45 11-124 21-154 10% over-ride Capt ; 10% over-ride Internat
2-57 12-128 22-156
3-69 13-131 23-158
4-80 14-134 24-160
5-90 15-137 25-162
6-100 16-140 25+ +1/yr
7-108 17-143
8-112 18-146
9-116 19-149
10-120 20-152

 

[Metroyet]

Isn't that trial for just the plaintiffs of the Addington case or does it encompass all west pilots? I was under the assumption that there would be a class action filed after the Aug 17th trial is over. Can anybody clear this up?

No. Damages are for the entire West pilot group. "Addington" et.al are the named plaintiffs for the West Class. Class certification was bitterly contested, (and lost) by Lee Seham. The Class action is over and the damages are for the class.

 

[cleardirect]

Just to change the tone....an option to change the stalemate or status quo ante: No bump/flush. Contract uses Nic for equipment bid, vacation bid. Uses LOS for any future furloughs or (a 2 East for 1 West basis). Must have minimum of 36 vacaton days, 12% retirement, and 80 or less max block (85 flex), same min block hours/frames.
However we completely change the paradigm for pay. This lessens incentive to move or change equipment and therefore saves company in training. It also lets them buy and fly whatever equipment they want, big or small.
Suggested year pay any equipment as follows:
1-45 11-124 21-154 10% over-ride Capt ; 10% over-ride Internat
2-57 12-128 22-156
3-69 13-131 23-158
4-80 14-134 24-160
5-90 15-137 25-162
6-100 16-140 25+ +1/yr
7-108 17-143
8-112 18-146
9-116 19-149
10-120 20-152

First, there is no negotiating on the Nicolau. The list will be used for everything. So furlough will be by the Nicolau. Second 80 hours or less is old thinking and will not work in today’s environment. This contract has to be about improving for the pilots that are on the property. Not about increasing body count.

It is unfair to the new hires that might come here only to provide furlough fodder for people that don’t want to get furloughed again. You guys did not like when it happened to you why would you want to do it someone else.

Next, the west already has a single pay rate for all aircraft. I would accept that in the next contract. The international override or wide body override I agree with. Paying F/O 90% of what a captain makes is not going to happen.

Last, thanks for the pay cut. No thank you. The F/O's get a small raise in total. The captains take a cut in rate and big cut in total. So as we have seen all along the east wants it all. Shifting all the money to the east. So a 2% raise in retirement, a pay cut and shifting the rest to the east. Why is this good for the west?

No thanks there was no "change in paradigm" just more of the same. The east wants everything.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Mr. Tiger

Let's talk about shaking your head. You stated earlier about how much the costs were and you came up with something like 8 to 12 cents per seat mile prior to the merger as if the pilots had something to do with that.

Let me remind you that the reason for those figures is because the AWA F/As, rampers, and gate agents were the lowest paid in the industry. The AWA F/A's are still one of the lowest paid. The f/a's didn't have lead pay and right now have a sorry ass 1 for 4 rig.

While you trumpet AWA's profits such as they were.....they were on the backs of your flight attendants!!!!


How bloody dare you.

flbynite,
I never meant to insinuate that the pilots of either airline had any real control of costs. I was simply pointing out that the two airlines when separate had costs that would not even put them in the same galaxy. AWA had costs that ranged from 7.5-8.5 cents per mile. While AAA had costs north of 14 cents per mile. It's true that AAA had more revenue coming in but was obviously unable to compete once the Southwest effect showed up. AWA however had minimal exposure to those "lucrative" markets and primarily focused its route structure in the west. While AWA also competed head-to-head with SWA it had similar costs and could therefore compete with SWA and do well. Keep in mind that AWA's two hubs were also SWA hubs. Our exposure to the SWA effect was much greater...

You can claim that everyone with low payroll can and should do better but you shoot holes in your argument with that example. Here's why. AAA had their contracts gutted. They were literally the lowest paid of like sized carriers. So how is it then that they could not get there costs under control? There is some other issue that drives these costs. The only thing I can think of is the focus on the east coast. While it's true that there is many profitable markets out east, I believe the costs of doing business out there is very high making the actual profit marginal when one considers what it cost to participate.

So all-in-all I was not attempting to trumpet anything. Actually I wanted to illustrate why in essence the west "suddenly" became a dead zone. I do not believe, nor blame the east for this. I blame a management team with no vision and no ability to make our system work. Unfortunately some on this board quickly forget their history and are rash to point out our plight in the west all the while forgetting they still have the cancer. AWA was not sick. Not until we got mixed up with AAA. Of course I hope you read that from a costs perspective. It's not meant to be a dig at anyone out east...

Hope that provides a little context for you.