US Pilots' Labor Thread 5/26 to 6/2-- NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[Phoenix]

... Without decent career pay, you end up with low quality/low hour JuCo graduates flying the public around under the guise of being mainline. Anyone who read the NMBs prelim on the Buffalo crash knows how that accident happened. BTW, good points, civil debate. El Snoopo

I am in full agreement with the benefit of experience and the risk injected by low pay. I think we can also agree FAA work/rest limits coupled with harassing calls from schedulers constantly trying to push crews to bend the FAA rules is a further cause of risk, by way of fatigue.

Anyone seen a company that operates like that lately?

 

[ableoneable]

With the rumored UAL merger, who do you think ALPA will be protecting? ALPA may pay for UAL, but under McCaskill-Bond, they cant meddle or stall presenting the arbitration award to the company. The only merger under M-B (two different unions) was East-West ground handlers. That one went straight DOH. Not our deal and Im not trying to resurrect the current NIC debate. The courts will decide that. Weve already seen ALPA merger policy in action and Idont think East or West wants to deal with it on the next merger.

Assuming there is a next merger the seniority integration will go one of two ways; 1. If ALPA is back - ALPA merger policy - negotiations ending in arbitration or 2. Negotiations between the two unions leading to an arbitration (the bottom line of the new law).

Therefore, I see little difference in the next merger between ALPA/ALPA and ALPA/USAPA.

With Ex-ALPA President Babbitt heading the FAA, maybe inexperienced Colgan crews wont be killing passengers. Without decent career pay, you end up with low quality/low hour JuCo graduates flying the public around under the guise of being mainline. Anyone who read the NMBs prelim on the Buffalo crash knows how that accident happened. BTW, good points, civil debate. El Snoopo

It's easy to be civil when we all agree with each other.

The Nicolau award is the rock upon which our marriage may founder. We are going to have to find a way to deal with each other if we ever want to get out from under our current contracts.

(BTW: I am not a bling guy. Though I do donate to AOL I never wore a lanyard and no stickers adorn my flight bags. I never believed that kind of crap had any upside.)


At the moment I am not concerned because in this economic environment I don't see us getting anything in a new contract unless we are willing to fund it ourselves. (I am worried about how much USAPA negotiators might be willing to give away in an attempt to gain C&Rs that mitigate the seniority list.)

With respect to that toxic topic I will say this; I do think the widebody flying associated with the fleet that was present at the PID should have been reserved for east pilots. The problem is that the time for reaching agreement was prior to arbitration. All that we on the west heard during "negotiations" was DOH ad infinitum.

Easters always cite the fact that west pilots were not horrified by the Nic award as proof of a windfall. It all comes down to expectations. Speaking for myself, I was braced for a DOH award. Though I did not think it the most likely list our merger committee was very upfront that it certainly was a possibility and that we had better be prepared for such an outcome.

The primary difference is that it appears east pilots had only one expectation and that was for a DOH award. Bad surprises are never pleasant.

 

[Phoenix]

If and when the time comes I will hold my nose and vote for ALPA (assuming Prater is gone).

Who are you kidding? The Nic aroma is so sweet it can overcome any putrid smell. Just sprits a little Nic freshener on an overfilled porta potty on a Phoenix summer day and... walla!

 

[ableoneable]

Who are you kidding? The Nic aroma is so sweet it can overcome any putrid smell. Just sprits a little Nic freshener on an overfilled porta potty on a Phoenix summer day and... walla!

ALPA is and always has been just a toolbox. They have some excellent resources but like any union your success is built upon a strong local.

A strong local that can not only be unified in the face of management actions but one that can tell ALPA national where to go when necessary.

ALPA national was always very much "don't rock the boat - if you try that you might fail so don't do anything." etc etc. They also sent us some legal talent that I would have fired.

If ALPA does come back we need to be very clear to them that they are on probation. If they don't want to release funds to us or they want to park their dead beat personnel with us or they don't want us to pursue a certain course of action because it may adversely affect global strategy at Delta we need to smack them upside the head - rapidly.

I have no problem telling ALPA that we are going to collect cards again in 24 months. If this requires a change in the ALPA constitution - I don't care, change it or maybe we don't come back.

 

[Phoenix]

If ALPA does come back we need to be very clear to them that they are on probation.

They will tremble.

But at least they could say half the group is sanctimonious.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I have no problem telling ALPA that we are going to collect cards again in 24 months. If this requires a change in the ALPA constitution - I don't care, change it or maybe we don't come back.

Absent a merger, ALPA will not be back on this property for at least 8 to 10 years. Most of the east pilots will have to have retired in order to get enough votes, let alone cards, for ALPA to even stand a chance.

Like I said before, we can have another union elections in about 10 months. Since cards are good for 12 months, why isn't anyone in the west getting started since we keep hearing about how bad USAPA is?

Why isn't ALPA out here campaigning to bring us back on board the mother ship?

We all know (even ALPA) it would be a total waste of time and money.

Absent a merger, USAPA will be the CBA on this property for many years to come, or we will be a non-union shop if USAPA is forced out of business. ALPA doesn't stand a chance, and they know it.

 

[Poug Darker]

You would consider bringing an organization that takes 80% of your dues money and gives you a freakin' magazine back on the property?!?!?

 

[ableoneable]

Absent a merger, ALPA will not be back on this property for at least 8 to 10 years. Most of the east pilots will have to have retired in order to get enough votes, let alone cards, for ALPA to even stand a chance.

Like I said before, we can have another union elections in about 10 months. Since cards are good for 12 months, why isn't anyone in the west getting started since we keep hearing about how bad USAPA is?

Why isn't ALPA out here campaigning to bring us back on board the mother ship?

We all know (even ALPA) it would be a total waste of time and money.

Absent a merger, USAPA will be the CBA on this property for many years to come, or we will be a non-union shop if USAPA is forced out of business. ALPA doesn't stand a chance, and they know it.

I make no specific prediction about the return of ALPA.

No doubt that the east pilot group holds the cards and you will decide on representation.

I don't think anyone is circulating cards because at the moment you may be correct about East pilots still supporting USAPA.

If, by late May 2010, we are still no closer to a new contract, and I see nothing to convince me that this is improbable, the east group may be amenable to a change in representation.

I don't think anyone in the west is looking at this in terms of a ten month countdown. A call for a change in representation will likely wait until that call is heard in the east. I don't see USAPA succeeding on any of their fronts so it all depends on how long east pilots are willing to listen to the rhetoric of Cleary et all.

 

[Phoenix]

You would consider bringing an organization that takes 80% of your dues money and gives you a freakin' magazine back on the property?!?!?

For the Nic they would agree to 10% dues rate, and no magazine. Can you blame 'em?

 

[ussnark]

In fact, the whole MDA thing will be back to haunt the guilty parties...it's just going to take some time to pin ALPA down.

What is the status of the MDA thing?

 

[RIASU_upe]

Who are you kidding? The Nic aroma is so sweet it can overcome any putrid smell. Just sprits a little Nic freshener on an overfilled porta potty on a Phoenix summer day and... walla!

Likewise, I'm sure your fantasy DOH list smells of roses...better stick with real flowers though because DOH will NEVER bloom, ask a federal judge and jury if you don't believe me.

One area sorely misunderstood by east is the notion that most west pilots think NIC is just fine and dandy, a "lottery ticket we can't cash" (love that one), "windfall", etc.. It may be for the more junior folk on the AWA propoerty, but not for most. You see, east has superior seniority even with NIC, and with no fences for PHX, that leaves MOST of us vulnerable to invasion and expulsion out of our base of many years. The opposite cannot be said. So, if you think I am in any hurry to implement NIC, like I said, you're sorely mistaken. I support the west fight to uphold the agreed to terms of seniority integration because it is the rightful and lawful thing to do. The same cannot be said for USAPAs DOH fantasy quest.

upe

 

[Phoenix]

Likewise, ...

Uh, not. I wasn't the one who feigned difficulty at voting in ALPA.

 

[RIASU_upe]

For the Nic they would agree to 10% dues rate, and no magazine. Can you blame 'em?

That's utterly ridiculous! What's ironic is east pilots are paying for avoiding the NIC to the the tune of a 20-30% pay raise. That makes for one expensive USAPA dues rate $$$$ Can you imagine that?

 

[RIASU_upe]

Absent a merger, ALPA will not be back on this property for at least 8 to 10 years. Most of the east pilots will have to have retired in order to get enough votes, let alone cards, for ALPA to even stand a chance.

Like I said before, we can have another union elections in about 10 months. Since cards are good for 12 months, why isn't anyone in the west getting started since we keep hearing about how bad USAPA is?

Why isn't ALPA out here campaigning to bring us back on board the mother ship?

We all know (even ALPA) it would be a total waste of time and money.

Absent a merger, USAPA will be the CBA on this property for many years to come, or we will be a non-union shop if USAPA is forced out of business. ALPA doesn't stand a chance, and they know it.

I have to agree with nyc. ALPA is all about ALPA (e.g. UAL & DAL) and it sickens me to think we would take them back after the disaster they left behind. Our only hope is to rid ourselves of the current criminals running USAPA and form a truly collaborative union that treats every US Airways pilot equally, no east west crap.

upe

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

What is the status of the MDA thing?

I'm not a party to it so I can't say what current status is. The ALPA strategy has been delay, delay, delay...

(Standard procedure when you expect to lose)