US Pilots Labor Thread 5/13-19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[nic4us]

I think you hit the nail on the head. The judge here is trying to rewrite labor laws. Once the NMB decided that the pilots were one group this should have ended.

Now, the judge MAY declare that USAPA cannot negotiate on it's own behalf. This is purely judicial activism, and I am anxious to see just how he "splits the baby".

Unfortunately, once the NMB decided that the pilots were one group, that group violated labor laws, so it could not have ended.

It should have ended with the conclusion of the Nicolau arbitration, again unfortunately a new union was created that violated labor laws and has been found responsible for doing so.

This judge is not rewriting labor laws, he is enforcing them. That is what judges do. USAPA broke the law, USAPA will be held accountable to the law. Any further denial from the east is plain irrational, and will most likely result in greater harm for themselves.

USAPA can negotiate on its own behalf, noone including this judge is denying that. Fortunatley, that will include the West's behalf. Get it now. Any underhanded "negotiation" on its own behalf that favors the east over the West is unlawful.

 

[cleardirect]

Under ALPA Merger Policy, after a merger, the two merger committees remain as separate entities, not governed by the MEC. The trip drops and hotel expenses are paid by the union, but each side has to levy an assessment on their own pilots to pay legal fees.

This is how I would set it up. The West pilots and East pilots get to select their merger representatives. They will be funded by USAPA, except for the lawyers fees which are independent. They each get to pick their own lawyers. These merger reps have full authority to represent their pilots. If they can agree on a negotiated solution to their seniority issues, then the full USAPA membership would vote to approve the changes. If they can't agree, then I guess it goes on forever.

I can't see any other way but to return to some previous status quo where each side gets an independent decision on moving forward.

What you are proposing is a redo of arbitration. Not going to happen. It is time to understand that arbitration is over. The DFR law suit is over. There is no more talking about it. It is completed. The judge is going to issue his order in the next few days. That order is going to include an injunction to the union that they must include the Nicolau award as is. Any violation to that order brings bad things. The west is also included in that order. It the west were to negotiate away from that then we would also be in violation.

No, the Nicolau will be included in any contract going forward. Vote yes or no. Your choice but every contract that appears will have the same section 22. The rest is up for grabs. With one exception. The other section have to use the Nicolau. Such as vacations, that is controlled by the seniority list. Using something else would be a violation of the injunction.

The company knows this too. They will be bound by the injunction also.

 

[FWAAA]

What you are proposing is a redo of arbitration. Not going to happen. It is time to understand that arbitration is over. The DFR law suit is over. There is no more talking about it. It is completed. The judge is going to issue his order in the next few days. That order is going to include an injunction to the union that they must include the Nicolau award as is. Any violation to that order brings bad things. The west is also included in that order. It the west were to negotiate away from that then we would also be in violation.

Exactly. Seniority integration has been decided. No negotiation is necessary, nor will be tolerated. I posted as much when the Nic award was handed down. East pilots don't have to vote in favor of a single contract, but each proposal will contain Nic. End of story.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Final and binding arbitration backed up with a federal injunction carries a bit of weight with it.

Yes USAPA must comply with the Nicolau award if the court issues an injunction requiring it. Nic is all you get from the court which by itself is virtually meaningless. You don't get to control the negotiations for the rest of the contract. USAPA does not have to negotiate with the West pilots.....only the company.

For sure the end result will be different than USAPA's DOH with C&R's but it remains to be seen if the end result turns out to be better or worse for the West pilots.

underpants

 

[ClueByFour]

The West position is now much worse than ever and the C&R protections that USAPA was offering will be lost by court order.

Which don't take effect until a joint contract, at which point the West will get Nicolau. How is that inferior to USAPA's C&Rs?

All labor contracts discriminate against minority groups of employees. They have to. It is impossible to make every employee or group of employees happy with a labor contract. Each employee can only vote yes or no to protect their individual interest. They can't sue the union to get more for themself than the democratic vote allows. The law allows unions near complete protections from lawsuits for bargaining. It has to or unions would not be able to ever sign a contract without being sued by some unhappy employee or "minority" group of employees. Addington would be a very narrow exception to union bargaining rights if it stands.

Addington will stand.

Here is why: what the East group tried to do was end-around a binding arbitration for a seniority merger among two parties. For all future airline mergers, congress (subsequent to the US/HP merger) has said that arbitration is the law of the land unless both parties belong to the same union (in which case that union's merger policy is controlling).

This is the Seeham defense--you have to let us screw the west or else it'll have "chilling effects." A judge and 9 jury members think that's just as laughable as it sounds on it's face.

One of the exceptions in the law is DFR. USAPA found it.

Exactly... now you get it. Contracts are negotiable. How seniority is applied in the contract is negotiable.

You guys want to go for another DFR? Or get a slapping from Wake?

It is, but you can't attempt to disenfranchise the west guys.

East pilots don't have to vote in favor of a single contract, but each proposal will contain Nic. End of story.

Precisely. Exactly where they were under ALPA, just a few million poorer for it.

 

[ChockJockey]

As I suspected. Evade the answer to the question by replying with the "process," not the "method."

Foiled! I guess I have to get up pretty early to pull one over on ol' busdriver. And to think I lettered in forensics just a few short years ago. For a moment I'll fool myself that you might actually care and try to elaborate on the method in which my work group was integrated. Ready? Here goes:

It wasn't. And isn't. Fleet service (as my colleague cltrat has previously demonstrated in this thread) consists of two rabid felines bound at the tail. This is only slightly better than two rabid felines stalking aimlessly until one gets shot and the other sees his end in an unfortunate mishap with a garbage disposal.

We'll never be as chum chum as the people were in the old Coca Cola commercials, and obviously, certainly, neither will any of you. If you ever feel so inclined you might want to navigate your bus over to the AA forums, where AA-TWA flamewars still erupt from time to time.

As far as our concern for protecting your job, we've done that in spades in previous give backs. Now, it's time to look out for Number One. You're along for the ride; sorry about that, but it is what it is. Get over it or quit.

And you know what? I appreciate the sacrifices that the pilots have made, and the sacrifices that everyone has had to make, even if they were involuntary. I know that none of you like being in this ordeal and that it must be psychologically exhausting to have to do the work you do with a bad bad monkey like this on your back all the while. One thing I think the media and general public consistently miss is the amount of work you have put into your careers; for some the depth of this investment reaches into the very soul. I can only imagine as most of my professional life lies ahead of me.

Brother, I'm beyond "over it". Getting sass and indignation from the flight deck is part of my job description; it ain't a thing. I see a lot of people here entrenched in their own mindsets, sacrificing flexibility and the willingness to compromise with each sandbag they place around them and each post they make.

I'm just here to spread some cheer and bang the tambourine; I don't have much regard for filings or injunctions or press releases or stickers on jetways, and I certainly don't have much regard for lawyers. I'm just a fool that's in love with the simple elegance of his job.

This much I do know: the years of spiritual grime a good lot of you are accumulating from this atmosphere of distrust of hatred will not quickly be washed away by any judge's decree. How many more years of agony, and for what? The chance for any kind of closure is long gone; the damage is done. Your victories will taste as ash in your mouth, your efforts will dissipate into the air as you look around and see that your personal empire has crumbled to nothing but smoldering carrion and cinder. Beware! Beware! Woe betide ye that doth fail to humble thyself!

The leprous rat has seen into your soul and the future beyond, and as he scurries into the darkness beneath where his kind hide the thunderheads gather on all horizons and the air ripples with thunder; far below only the faintest squeaks: "Save yourselves! Save yourselves..."



How's that for some method?

 

[ClueByFour]

For sure the end result will be different than USAPA's DOH with C&R's but it remains to be seen if the end result turns out to be better or worse for the West pilots.

It'll be no worse than what the East gets, else USAPA finds itself in court again. Are the Angry FO's really that dumb?

Arbitrator thought so. Judge thought so. Jury thought so.

I want what Seeham uses to sell this crap to the USAPAians. It's certainly better than peddling used cars. His salesmanship is approaching Billy Mays and the Shamwow guy....

 

[Captain Underpants]

The rest is up for grabs. With one exception. The other section have to use the Nicolau. Such as vacations, that is controlled by the seniority list. Using something else would be a violation of the injunction.

Absolutely false! The Nic award says nothing about vacations. If Nic wanted to control Vacation bidding he should have put it in the award. You want the judge to negotiate the contract for you but he does not have the authority....USAPA has the sole authority to negotiate the contract subject to ratification by the pilots.

underpants

 

[a320av8r]

Yes USAPA must comply with the Nicolau award if the court issues an injunction requiring it. Nic is all you get from the court which by itself is virtually meaningless. You don't get to control the negotiations for the rest of the contract. USAPA does not have to negotiate with the West pilots.....only the company.

For sure the end result will be different than USAPA's DOH with C&R's but it remains to be seen if the end result turns out to be better or worse for the West pilots.

underpants

USAPA will abide by the Nicolau award. It will not be negotiated. There is no negotiating with the west pilots as the list is what it is and USAPA will represent all pilots equally. There is no reading between the lines, the end, period.
BTW I am an east pilot and ready to get this behind us.

 

[jimntx]

Exactly... now you get it. Contracts are negotiable. How seniority is applied in the contract is negotiable.

underpants

Unless that seniority has been determined by binding arbitration. The contract is negotiable. The results of the binding arbitration are not. Now, since you are a pilot, I am assuming that you are not dense. You know as well as I that those of you trying to claim that the seniority is negotiable are grasping at non-existent straws. The time to negotiate the seniority issue was before Nicolau was handed the issue by the union representatives of the East pilots. That time has past.

From the New World Dictionary:

binding, adj: 1. that [which] binds; restrictive. 2. that holds one to an agreement, promise, etc.; obligatory.

 

[EastUS]

Exactly. Seniority integration has been decided. No negotiation is necessary, nor will be tolerated.

I posted as much when the Nic award was handed down.


East pilots don't have to vote in favor of a single contract, ...................... End of story.

1) Well..that certainly seems "reasonable", and will well serve to ensure the status quo, I'd think.

2) That was over two years ago, and still counting it would seem,....Your point being?

3) Agreed. I'm all ears as to why the east majority should actually want to do otherwise? What truly magical contract provisions, enhancements and benefits do you envision as being superior or even equivalent with what would be lost via the nic? I'd appreciate any/even some realistic and attainable contract specifics that you feel would suffice there....other than:"Hey Rocky!!...Watch me pull a rabbit outta' my hat"?????

 

[Elevation]

Bottom line:


USAPA was on the wrong side of the law.

 

[Megasnoop]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I just can't resist replying. Suck it up and move on. You guys are going to be the death of US Airways. I have non-pilot friends who work for US Airways, and they don't deserve to have their careers destroyed by a bunch of spoiled, selfish brats who think they can pick up all their marbles and go home just because someone won their favorite aggie fair and square.

Reading the rest of your post, jim, sounds like you got a dog in the fight. Anger noted, as well. You sound like a sore winner. Of course binding is binding. The issues always been if binding transcends CBAs. Other issue going forward is there even a chance that a NIC contract without a 40% pay increase will pass in the next 5 years? You may have something there about the death of US Airways, but it wont be east pilots that cause it. Parkers got an urge to merge with UAL. As long as we still have separate ops, he can fragment the east off to his UAL/LCC merger and sell off the west operations. Pie-in-the-sky? You havent been following the dougster lately. If he wanted this merged, you could have done so back before the NIC.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The judge here is trying to rewrite labor laws. Once the NMB decided that the pilots were one group this should have ended.

Now, the judge MAY declare that USAPA cannot negotiate on it's own behalf. This is purely judicial activism, and I am anxious to see just how he "splits the baby".

Oldie, first thing to keep in mind is this judge is anti-union, former corporate attorney, appointed by Bush II. I believe we got some legitimate appeals issues. If they arent legit, then the 9th Circuit will refuse to hear the case. That should end it. Judicial activism can only go so far. If he rules on the way was was thunking, then he forces us to make the choice of whether to continue with appeal. More than one West pilot observed that Wake "wrote the book" on appeals in Arizona. Not to quibble about words, but he wrote a book on state court appeals. Lots of lawyers write lots of books. I wouldnt put too much credit in Wakes sterling jurist background. If Wake "splits the baby," it may make it not worth our effort to appeal. Personally, I could probably live with his:
But as I think about this at times, Mr. Stevens, it seemed to me that if the plaintiff prevails, the remedy is an injunction that orders the union to negotiate for the Nicolau Award. And I can't think of any other remedy.

Yes USAPA must comply with the Nicolau award if the court issues an injunction requiring it. Nic is all you get from the court which by itself is virtually meaningless. You don't get to control the negotiations for the rest of the contract. USAPA does not have to negotiate with the West pilots.....only the company.

For sure the end result will be different than USAPA's DOH with C&R's but it remains to be seen if the end result turns out to be better or worse for the West pilots. underpants

That pretty much sums it up, undies. Anything more is judicial activism that wont fly in SFO.

Steve

 

[USPHX]

As I suspected. Evade the answer to the question by replying with the "process," not the "method."

As far as our concern for protecting your job, we've done that in spades in previous give backs. Now, it's time to look out for Number One. You're along for the ride; sorry about that, but it is what it is. Get over it or quit.

You gave up NOTHING, Busdriver. You got hired at a NEW company in May 2005, you just didn't have to interview for the job. Why do you think others that were hired at that new company (LCC), at the same time as you, should subsidize you for losses incurred at your former job at AAA? We all took huge pay cuts, suffered work rule changes, etc, etc back in the day when AWA was in bk and NEVER got them back. Do you see Westyz whining about losses suffered at their former employer or any demands from them that you subsidize their past losses? I didn't think so.

Please, do us all a favor and take your own advice. As you so magnanimously suggested to ChockJockey: "....it is what it is. GET OVER IT OR QUIT!"

 

[nycbusdriver]

Foiled! I guess I have to get up pretty early to pull one over on ol' busdriver. And to think I lettered in forensics just a few short years ago. For a moment I'll fool myself that you might actually care and try to elaborate on the method in which my work group was integrated. Ready? Here goes: ...

...The chance for any kind of closure is long gone; the damage is done. ...

Lettered in forensics??!!! Wow! Did you get the matching sweater, too?

So, what you're telling me in oh-so-many words is that the work atmosphere is so toxic here that it will never be a fun place to work no matter what we do.

And that's news how?