US Pilots Labor Thread 5/13-19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[EastUS]

We crafted an agreement and voted on it.

That seems quite reasonable. Would you mind terribly if we also exercise our voting rights?

Rhetorical: I'm going to take a "wild guess" that "some" respect for your date of hire/service longevity was involved. True or False?

 

[EastUS]

We have a seniority list and USAPA can try to negotiate a change to it within the constraints of the law.

Agreed. Depending on the will of the membership; It's a bit early to claim any knowledge of what said constraints truly are.

 

[A320 Driver]

That seems quite reasonable. Would you mind terribly if we also exercise our voting rights?

I guess our voting rights are in the judges hands for now. West wants a new contract so they can capture some of the fortune East is enjoying, or so they think. I talked to no less than 4 pilots yesterday going through downbid involuntarily. We are parking our 757s and now 2 767 may be going back as well. Some of our group 2 aircraft were returned to leasors and replaced with 190s. The A330s being delivered this year are part of a previous order and will replace some 767s. I hoped the company would wait on parking the 76s since they spent the money to refurbish the interiors, but the economic downturn seems to have changed the plan.

My point is this...life is not rosey over on the east coast. Our flying is shrinking just like it is out west. I know west wants to capture some flying over here and the Nic certainly makes that possible, but it won't be pretty. There is a fire raging and I honestly don't know what will put it out. "Accept the Nic and move on" sounds easy enough if you are a West pilot, not so easy if you have put up with dissapointment for 2 decades. It has become a way of life for many of us.

West won yesterday. Enjoy it for what it's worth.


A320 Driver B)

 

[traderjake]

Agreed. Depending on the will of the membership; It's a bit early to claim any knowledge of what said constraints truly are.

Based on what the jury said today it's not looking good for your side.

 

[CactusFlyr]

Just curious....

What method was used to integrate your employee group?

OBJECTION..........Relevancy.

 

[oscarjazz]

Since no one asked, I am going to throw my $.02 in. Can anyone suggest a real framework for resolution of this problem? Here is my idea.

Nicolau award is the list.

The pilots agree to a set of double declining fences in the East. For every two pilots that retire or medically disable from the East list, the East loses one protected slot. For every two growth positions that are created in the airline, the East loses one protected slot. For every West pilot that goes East, an East pilot gets to go West.

• Need language for time shift from East to West and vice versa
• Need language for new bases
• Need language to sunset the protections, perhaps when 50% of the former East list is retired or disabled

West pilots get immediate access to widebody flying on a 1 for 1 bid basis

West furloughees get recalled into next available positions in the entire airline

Lump sum payment for West furloughed pilots funded by a stepped raise to parity for the East pilots

Negotiate length of service credit for ALL past and current furloughed pilots for pay, vacation, etc.

A little bit of honey and a little bit of vinegar for everyone. I hope I have made everyone angry, because that is when you know the deal is right.

Flame on boys.

 

[Schultz]

MDA case in the fall and then the appeal. This thing is far from being over.

 

[Captain Underpants]

We have a seniority list and USAPA can try to negotiate a change to it within the constraints of the law.

I expect 1500 West pilots will now join USAPA and pay dues to secure voting rights to protect their interests. A tweaked Nic would cause most pilots on both sides to vote against. The only ratifiable contract will have to completely neuter Nic all the way to fair and equitable to be able to secure enough East votes to ratify. The West position is now much worse than ever and the C&R protections that USAPA was offering will be lost by court order.

All labor contracts discriminate against minority groups of employees. They have to. It is impossible to make every employee or group of employees happy with a labor contract. Each employee can only vote yes or no to protect their individual interest. They can't sue the union to get more for themself than the democratic vote allows. The law allows unions near complete protections from lawsuits for bargaining. It has to or unions would not be able to ever sign a contract without being sued by some unhappy employee or "minority" group of employees. Addington would be a very narrow exception to union bargaining rights if it stands.

underpants

 

[cltrat]

Just curious....

What method was used to integrate your employee group?

that would be DOH seniority

as for the voted on agreement some groups of one view(Phx) were allowed to vote on site at the airport whiles others ( CLT PHL ) had to vote off site skewing the vote in some peoples eyes

 

[A320 Driver]

Since no one asked, I am going to throw my $.02 in. Can anyone suggest a real framework for resolution of this problem? Here is my idea.

Nicolau award is the list.
whoa
The pilots agree to a set of double declining fences in the East. For every two pilots that retire or medically disable from the East list, the East loses one protected slot. For every two growth positions that are created in the airline, the East loses one protected slot. For every West pilot that goes East, an East pilot gets to go West.

• Need language for time shift from East to West and vice versa
• Need language for new bases
• Need language to sunset the protections, perhaps when 50% of the former East list is retired or disabled

West pilots get immediate access to widebody flying on a 1 for 1 bid basis

West furloughees get recalled into next available positions in the entire airline

Lump sum payment for West furloughed pilots funded by a stepped raise to parity for the East pilots

Negotiate length of service credit for ALL past and current furloughed pilots for pay, vacation, etc.

A little bit of honey and a little bit of vinegar for everyone. I hope I have made everyone angry, because that is when you know the deal is right.

Flame on boys.

Here we go:

West pilots get immediate access to widebody flying on a 1 for 1 bid basis

Since the age 60 rule change, there are NO protected slots.

NOBODY West has enough seniority WITH the Nic to hold an A330 and the 767 slots are drying up to the point that none will be able to hold that either.


Lump sum payment for West furloughed pilots funded by a stepped raise to parity for the East pilots

Sharing the pain are we?


A little bit of honey and a little bit of vinegar for everyone.

Where's your vinegar Ace?

A320 Driver B)

 

[Pi brat]

Here we go:

West pilots get immediate access to widebody flying on a 1 for 1 bid basis

Since the age 60 rule change, there are NO protected slots.

NOBODY West has enough seniority WITH the Nic to hold an A330 and the 767 slots are drying up to the point that none will be able to hold that either.


Lump sum payment for West furloughed pilots funded by a stepped raise to parity for the East pilots

Sharing the pain are we?


A little bit of honey and a little bit of vinegar for everyone.

Where's your vinegar Ace?

A320 Driver B)

The problem with going "all in" is that if the other side wins they don't have to drink the vinegar, it's all scotch for them.

 

[jimntx]

I expect 1500 West pilots will now join USAPA and pay dues to secure voting rights to protect their interests. A tweaked Nic would cause most pilots on both sides to vote against. The only ratifiable contract will have to completely neuter Nic all the way to fair and equitable to be able to secure enough East votes to ratify. The West position is now much worse than ever and the C&R protections that USAPA was offering will be lost by court order.

All labor contracts discriminate against minority groups of employees. They have to. It is impossible to make every employee or group of employees happy with a labor contract. Each employee can only vote yes or no to protect their individual interest. They can't sue the union to get more for themself than the democratic vote allows. The law allows unions near complete protections from lawsuits for bargaining. It has to or unions would not be able to ever sign a contract without being sued by some unhappy employee or "minority" group of employees. Addington would be a very narrow exception to union bargaining rights if it stands.

underpants

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I just can't resist replying. There is a very specific point under the RLA where member voting rights are abrogated. That point is called binding arbitration. If a labor issue goes to that point, the result can not be voted away. Your union representatives (ALPA) demanded binding arbitration and that is what they got.

Don't bother with the keystrokes to type any of the following...
1. ALPA does not represent me. It was the bargaining agent of record at the time of the arbitration.
2. I did not instruct/authorize ALPA to go to arbitration. Yeah, well as you say above, your union is protected. You elected them to represent you. Under the law, unless criminal activity can be proved against them, you are bound by whatever your elected officials decide. Just like in the good ole US of A, we get to elect a President and a Congress, but we don't get to second guess and overturn their every decision we don't like.

The former AWA pilots sued under DFR. A jury has now agreed with their position. Fair or not (and the law is not really concerned with what is fair--except when a majority is trying to nullify rights of a minority), that is the jury's decision and it is now a matter of record. The only thing the 9th Circuit will care about is whether or not the judge erred procedurally or legally. The jury's decision is not appealable.

As has been said before, there are numerous cases in the law and the history of the US where "majority rules," doesn't. Slavery, the rights of women to vote and own property, civil rights in general when applied to other than white males.

I don't like the fact that I have to commute from Dallas to my base because there are too many people senior to me on the transfer list to DFW, but that's the way it is. I have a choice. I can quit and find a job in Dallas where I live, or I can commute. A binding arbitration award determined that in this particular merger the seniority of the two groups being merged was too disparate for DOH to be a fair and equitable means of combining the two groups. Binding does not mean binding only if I like the result. Suck it up and move on. You guys are going to be the death of US Airways. I have non-pilot friends who work for US Airways, and they don't deserve to have their careers destroyed by a bunch of spoiled, selfish brats who think they can pick up all their marbles and go home just because someone won their favorite aggie fair and square.

Oh, and I think you need to stop and ask yourself which is more important. That I am still a right seat guy or a narrowbody captain or whatever when I reach retirement? Or, that I am a former right seat guy or narrowbody captain or whatever who used to work for an airline that no longer exists; so, I didn't quite make it to retirement? Pride and principles don't buy much at Safeway.

 

[Poug Darker]

Thinking out loud...
The Nic only applies to the bidding and awarding of positions. It does not speak to how we determine pay, vacation, or even pecking order of pass riding. It also does not apply to new hires. The contract negotiators and union folks need to think out of the box for a common solution on this so that we all can obtain 'more' and 'better'. I agree that dragging the court process out is counterproductive - we all will only live so long.
Here are some suggestions for contractual solution:
Determine pay by LOS/DOH on a 25 year scale with a captain %-age override. Reduces training costs by eliminating chasing the highest paying airplane. This also eliminates the company's need to hire for 'training float', the best example being recent history on the east side. Guys, who cares what you operate, it's all about W-2. The company gets a break on their insurance for an experienced workforce - have them pass the savings over to those who earned that experience.
Determine vacation bidding order by LOS/DOH.
Drop the required block hours (too complicated and hard to monitor/enforce) and substiute a 'no furlough' clause. With all of the attrition coming in the next 10 years, this company should not have to furlough anyway.
Drop the 'force majeure' clause.
Enhance scope - it is ridiculous that half the lift in the system is contracted out AND that it is losing money to boot. Regional flying should be regional in nature: within 100 miles of a hub. Not PHL-MEM or PHX-ORD. The company has two regional airline divisions - why is that not enough?
Let's get to work on a contract that we can all vote for that will enhance our lives and enrich our families' futures.
My two cents.
Thanks

 

[73320]

I expect 1500 West pilots will now join USAPA and pay dues to secure voting rights to protect their interests. A tweaked Nic would cause most pilots on both sides to vote against. The only ratifiable contract will have to completely neuter Nic all the way to fair and equitable to be able to secure enough East votes to ratify. The West position is now much worse than ever and the C&R protections that USAPA was offering will be lost by court order.

All labor contracts discriminate against minority groups of employees. They have to. It is impossible to make every employee or group of employees happy with a labor contract. Each employee can only vote yes or no to protect their individual interest. They can't sue the union to get more for themself than the democratic vote allows. The law allows unions near complete protections from lawsuits for bargaining. It has to or unions would not be able to ever sign a contract without being sued by some unhappy employee or "minority" group of employees. Addington would be a very narrow exception to union bargaining rights if it stands.

underpants

Underpants,

Can you give us some idea on a ratifiable fair and equitable deal for relief for the east. All we have ever seen is DOH. The west obviously disagrees with the lost protections in your DOH with C&R's or they would not have been suing you. Apparently the jury agrees with them. Why have the east posters on here offered nothing but DOH as a solution? I have yet to read anything on here from east pilots that the west might have found acceptable. I am certain if you were in the west pilots shoes, you would all be stunned at the constant DOH mantra despite the losses and despite the devastation it would do o the west pilots, who you now have to represent. Where are you going with this?

 

[Captain Underpants]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I just can't resist replying. There is a very specific point under the RLA where member voting rights are abrogated. That point is called binding arbitration. If a labor issue goes to that point, the result can not be voted away. Your union representatives (ALPA) demanded binding arbitration and that is what they got.

Yes of course I expect a court order to require USAPA to negotiate the Nicolau award into a joint contract. The West is stuck with the Nic award as well. Nic was very lazy and provided almost no conditions or restrictions , protections or guarantees for either side. USAPA must now produce a ratifiable contract by bargaining all 30 sections of the CBA while complying with the court order whatever it turns out to be.

For example our reserve processing used to be by seniority order with the ability to pass trips until ALPA changed it to a time balancing system disregarding seniority. This of course gave up our seniority rights for this part of the contract in section 25 (scheduling) even though seniority was established by the final and binding Kagel award in section 22 (seniority) of the contract.

Do you understand the problem now?

underpants