US Pilots Labor Thread 5/13-19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[hp_fa]

Oldie, first thing to keep in mind is this judge is anti-union, former corporate attorney, appointed by Bush II. I believe we got some legitimate appeals issues. If they arent legit, then the 9th Circuit will refuse to hear the case.

I just want to put forth another possibility.

It is quite possible ( I did not say probable) that the 9th Circuit could accept jurisdiction and the appeal in order to ratify and place into authoritative case law that the essential portion of Judge Wake's fundamental ruling(s) that the establishment of USAPA and its constitution could not be used abrogate the final and binding seniority decision that had been handed down via ALPA merger policy prior to the election of USAPA as the sole bargaining agent for the pilots at the merged US Airways. The 9th Circuit **could** decide that it wants to make the fundamental rulings of Judge Wake mandatory autority within its jurisdiction, which would make it also secondary authority for all other federal courts and also at the US Supreme Court as long as the US Supreme Court did not ever accept jurisdiction and hand down any written opinion. (In other words, other attorneys in other cases could then cite any 9th Circuit opinion in Addington in any other courts outside the 9th Circuit as a persuasive authority until Addington would be otherwise distinguished or over-ruled as authority on any applicable points of law.)

How and why the 9th Circuit may decide whether or not to accept the appeal for judicial review will not be readily known to any of us.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

There is no accepting the nic, it is done. The pilot roster (not seniority list anymore) will be imposed soon. The only negotiations and ratification will be for the normal work rules, pay, etc., not the list.

and we get to vote on any contract, yes i know it will contain nic and yes i know it will be voted down, im not suggesting negotiating nic, im saying it still has to be part of a ratified contract to be enforceable and it NEVER will be. Legal impasse, what next?

 

[mrman]

you guys know there will never be a joint contract with nic, and we know you will never give up nic. why do you keep ignoring this undisputble fact. you say move on.. that will only happen when that fact is acknowledged and a different course is charted...any suggestions, i mean realistic suggestions?

Sounds like a quote months before Eastern collapsed

 

[exB717Flyer]

you guys know there will never be a joint contract with nic, ... why do you keep ignoring this undisputble fact.

Simple: we don't believe you. Especially in light of recent court events we think enough Easties will realize the experiment has failed and decide they're actually sick of LOA93.

you say move on.. that will only happen when that fact is acknowledged and a different course is charted...any suggestions, i mean realistic suggestions?

Yes. Let's all band together as a unified pilot group and negotiate a decent contract that includes the Nicolau list -- and we'll all vote on it. Only then will we believe you.

 

[cleardirect]

and we get to vote on any contract, yes i know it will contain nic and yes i know it will be voted down, im not suggesting negotiating nic, im saying it still has to be part of a ratified contract to be enforceable and it NEVER will be. Legal impasse, what next?

Your choice. Vote up or down but you are going to vote on a total package including the Nicolau.

If you have already decided to vote no without seeing the total contract OK. Then the union can disregard any further input from you. Accept whatever is eventually voted in. Pay your dues vote no and step aside. The west is coming.

 

[Megasnoop]

I just want to put forth another possibility.

It is quite possible ( I did not say probable) that the 9th Circuit could accept jurisdiction and the appeal in order to ratify and place into authoritative case law that the essential portion of Judge Wake's fundamental ruling(s) that the establishment of USAPA and its constitution could not be used abrogate the final and binding seniority decision that had been handed down via ALPA merger policy prior to the election of USAPA as the sole bargaining agent for the pilots at the merged US Airways. The 9th Circuit **could** decide that it wants to make the fundamental rulings of Judge Wake mandatory autority within its jurisdiction, which would make it also secondary authority for all other federal courts and also at the US Supreme Court as long as the US Supreme Court did not ever accept jurisdiction and hand down any written opinion. (In other words, other attorneys in other cases could then cite any 9th Circuit opinion in Addington in any other courts outside the 9th Circuit as a persuasive authority until Addington would be otherwise distinguished or over-ruled as authority on any applicable points of law.)

Id agree. Thats what activist courts do, hp, make law from the bench. The 9th enjoys poking sticks at the 5/4 Surpeme Court, daring them to overrule, which happens a lot for them. All courts like being the ones to set precedent. Im not saying the 9th would rule in favor of USAPA. They might view it as a minority rights issue and not only sustain Wake, but even go beyond Wakes anticipated narrow decision. They recently agreed to hear an age-60 discrimination claim against the FAA by a group of retired SWA pilots, reversing a Federal judge. Hearing in June. Strange bunch.

How and why the 9th Circuit may decide whether or not to accept the appeal for judicial review will not be readily known to any of us.

If the 9th wont hear it, game over. Then time to put together a TA and let the majority rule. Meanwhile, negotiations will continue while this plays out in the 9th circut.

Your choice. Vote up or down but you are going to vote on a total package including the Nicolau.

Cant argue with you there, clear.

If you have already decided to vote no without seeing the total contract OK. Then the union can disregard any further input from you. Accept whatever is eventually voted in. Pay your dues vote no and step aside. The west is coming.

Hopefully everyone will read before voting. Kind of like reading the DOH C&Rs before filing. West is coming no doubt. You should arrive about 2016, thats when you got the majority. You can run the "Goat Man" for president. Thats all assuming parkenstein doesnt split the place up in his deal with UAL. Lets see, USAPA agrees to the E/W fragmentation to make the UAL deal work and BINGO! Another DFR! How much fun. Stephano

 

[end_of_alpa]

I just want to put forth another possibility.

It is quite possible ( I did not say probable) that the 9th Circuit could accept jurisdiction and the appeal in order to ratify and place into authoritative case law that the essential portion of Judge Wake's fundamental ruling(s) that the establishment of USAPA and its constitution could not be used abrogate the final and binding seniority decision that had been handed down via ALPA merger policy prior to the election of USAPA as the sole bargaining agent for the pilots at the merged US Airways. The 9th Circuit **could** decide that it wants to make the fundamental rulings of Judge Wake mandatory autority within its jurisdiction, which would make it also secondary authority for all other federal courts and also at the US Supreme Court as long as the US Supreme Court did not ever accept jurisdiction and hand down any written opinion. (In other words, other attorneys in other cases could then cite any 9th Circuit opinion in Addington in any other courts outside the 9th Circuit as a persuasive authority until Addington would be otherwise distinguished or over-ruled as authority on any applicable points of law.)

How and why the 9th Circuit may decide whether or not to accept the appeal for judicial review will not be readily known to any of us.

Fed. R. App. P. 3

APPEAL AS OF RIGHT - HOW TAKEN

(a) Filing the Notice of Appeal.

(1) An appeal permitted by law as of right from a district court to a court
of appeals may be taken only by filing a notice of appeal with the
district clerk within the time allowed by Rule 4. At the time of filing,
the appellant must furnish the clerk with enough copies of the
notice to enable the clerk to comply with Rule 3(d).

(a) Appeal in a Civil Case.

(1) Time for Filing a Notice of Appeal.

(A) In a civil case, except as provided in Fed. R. App. P. 4(a)(1)(B), 4(a)(4), and 4©, the notice of appeal required by Fed. R. App. P. 3 must be filed with the district clerk within 30 days after the judgment or order appealed from is entered.


It IS readily known!!!

As you so typically overlook many of the salient details regarding your expert "para"legal commentary, I would advise you to dust off your copy of Black's Law Dictionary (what version do you have, if any...2nd? 9th is current as of now) and review "law as of right" as far as appeals are concerned. The only issue USAPA needs concern itself with is following the RULES. If they do, there WILL be an appeal...AS OF RIGHT.

Once the DISTRICT judge determines that the trial is over he will FORMALLY announce this as so (called an ORDER). It is the same as in state court. I should know as I have filed two appeals in North Carolina as a Pro Se. The appellate court MUST accept jurisdiction if properly undertaken by the appealing party....as of RIGHT! The District court must establish when their jurisdiction is over. (see above time for filing).

Here is the link to 9th Cir. FRAP. http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/rules/

Here is the link to Amazon to get your LATEST copy of Black's Law Dictionary:

http://www.amazon.com/Blacks-Law-Dictionar...5451&sr=1-4

Just thought I could assist you with providing the source for legal materials. Just wondering if you know what FRAP is?

As far as your contention that the Appeals court has some kind of "choice" as to whether or not they "want to make case law" is simply NOT how the appeals process works. In short, if you don't know what you're talking about, WHICH YOU DON'T...you need to take a sabatical from "law", and go back to doing what you probably do best: BE A FLIGHT ATTENDANT!

This short "blurb" from Wiki may help you:

"Authority to review

The authority of appellate courts to review a decisions of lower courts varies widely from one jurisdiction to another. In some places, the appellate court has limited powers of review. For example, in the United States, both state and federal appellate courts are usually restricted to examining whether the court below made the correct legal determinations, rather than hearing direct evidence and determining what the facts of the case were. Furthermore, U.S. appellate courts are usually restricted to hearing appeals based on matters that were originally brought up before the trial court. Hence, such an appellate court will not consider an appellant's argument if it is based on a theory that is raised for the first time in the appeal.

In most U.S. states, and in U.S. federal courts, parties before the court are allowed one appeal as of right. This means that a party who is unsatisfied with the outcome of a trial may bring an appeal to contest that outcome. However, appeals may be costly, and the appellate court must find an error on the part of the court below that justifies upsetting the verdict. Therefore, only a small proportion of trial court decisions result in appeals.

Some appellate courts, particularly supreme courts, have the power of discretionary review, meaning that they can decide whether they will hear an appeal brought in a particular case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeals_court

 

[EastUS]

Simple: we don't believe you.

Especially in light of recent court events we think enough Easties will realize the experiment has failed and decide they're actually sick of LOA93.

Yes. Let's all band together as a unified pilot group and negotiate a decent contract that includes the Nicolau list -- and we'll all vote on it. Only then will we believe you.

1) Nothing new there. Who could ever forget the famous west proclamation of "You won't even get 200 cards!"?

2) Firstly; It's utterly absurd to even imagine that, simply by including Nic, any magically achieved, fabulous contract would be at ALL possible within the directly foreseeable future. What's management's supposed incentive to suddenly start negotiating in expeditious good faith?...To increase their labor costs by leaps and bounds?...Perhaps to make the west minority happy?...Sure thing....any second now....I'll hold my breath. Secondly; It's yet to be seen just how the LOA93 business will work out. Hmmm...it also occurs to me that "You can live on LOA93 forever!" was long a well established west "battle cry" for over two years now, as if east reluctance to being steamrolled over by the nicster would magically evaporate. So far, in "predicting" any/all east responses; You guys haven't been right so much as once.....Just some food for thought.

3) "... negotiate a decent contract"...."that includes the Nicolau list". = Mutually contradictory phrases...

 

[EastUS]

Your choice. Vote up or down but you are going to vote on a total package including the Nicolau.

If you have already decided to vote no without seeing the total contract OK. Then the union can disregard any further input from you. Accept whatever is eventually voted in. Pay your dues vote no and step aside. The west is coming.

"Your choice. Vote up or down.." It certainly is.

"Then the union can disregard any further input from you." Well....ummm...I'm not really all that certain about that. I do believe they'd still have to count any and all votes...and, btw: isn't it the position of the west that none should ever be at all disenfranchised from any union proceedings?....Unless it suits your purposes of course? "The west is coming." Possibly..just a bit prematurely?

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

Your choice. Vote up or down but you are going to vote on a total package including the Nicolau.

If you have already decided to vote no without seeing the total contract OK. Then the union can disregard any further input from you. Accept whatever is eventually voted in. Pay your dues vote no and step aside. The west is coming.

I don't think you are coming for a long time. Would you please speculate on the details of a contract that would be supported by enough east pilots to pass, one that would realistically be negotiated and agreed to by the company and USAPA?.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Simple: we don't believe you. Especially in light of recent court events we think enough Easties will realize the experiment has failed and decide they're actually sick of LOA93.Yes. Let's all band together as a unified pilot group and negotiate a decent contract that includes the Nicolau list -- and we'll all vote on it. Only then will we believe you.

You won't even need to get that far. Call a picketing event in PHL. See how many Easties show up to push for a contract containing the NIC unaltered - there will be your proof.

 

[exB717Flyer]

You won't even need to get that far. Call a picketing event in PHL. See how many Easties show up to push for a contract containing the NIC unaltered - there will be your proof.

I don't believe you either. I simply won't believe it until there's a vote.

BTW, the East's Dear Leader Mr. Cleary stated he's "supremely confident" of success on appeal. Reminds me of "Baghdad Bob" telling the world there's no US troops in Iraq right as bombs fall in the background. Do you Easties agree with Mr. Cleary's optimism?

 

[cleardirect]

I don't think you are coming for a long time. Would you please speculate on the details of a contract that would be supported by enough east pilots to pass, one that would realistically be negotiated and agreed to by the company and USAPA?.

No speculation, as we all vote individually. We all have different levels and important needs. I will not pretend to guess what others will or will not vote for. You have already decided nothing will do it for you, so your input is irrelevant now. Take a break and let the rest of us work it out.

That is going to be a gigantic balancing act for usapa. What will the east vote for that includes Nicolau? What will the west vote for that does not hand the entire contract to the east? What is the company willing to pony up?

But as I said you can sit back and relax, stay out of the way and vote no. Remain at your current pay and working conditions. Your choice but the rest of us are going to move ahead.

 

[phasersonstun2]

Any remedy WILL require west pilots to join USAPA in order to receive relief... otherwise the court is engaging in union busting tactics.

 

[cleardirect]

Any remedy WILL require west pilots to join USAPA in order to receive relief... otherwise the court is engaging in union busting tactics.

Nope! On one is required to be a member of a union. Sorry federal law. Just like the judge can not impose a contract or force anyone to vote yes.

What he can do is in join the union from changing the Nicolau at all. It goes into section 22 untouched. Then the union is free to work on the rest of the contract as they see fit.(using the nicolau for all things seniority) If the west pilots choose not to join they accept whatever contract is eventually adopted. But it will have the Nicolau in it.