US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Please tell us how he dismantles the most profitable piece of the equation? We all know this guy is all about selling. The most sensible and easily doable is to dismantle the west. Study up on the change of control provision. I say the one that does not have it is the one most likely to go.

So your circular logic goes, that if the east wins and increases the cost by $350 million the east is still profitable. That he would not make more money by shifting flying to the now less costly west.

Instead he would dismantle the west. But your change of control that is keeping Parker from his merger he would allow you to remain the same size or even grow.


If he is concerned about CoC don’t you think he would try and SHRINK the east as small as he could get it or make it go away, so there would be as little impact on the merger as possible?

 

[767jetz]

?????????????????

I'm saying that Piedmont doesn't count. You work for USAirways. USAir or USAirways pilots have never been on strike. Therefore you are part of a group of pilots who never stood up to management and went on strike. Just like you (pl) say that USAirways has no scabs, yet one of your union reps scabbed at CO. So if you(pl) don't count him as a scab, you get no credit for the strike you had at PI either.

 

[cleardirect]

Oh ture man of genius. You have cracked the code and busted it wide open. Yes Mr. Parker can do whatever he wants. He can impose a contract, impose a seniority list, he can do what Judge Wake can't.

Pay no attenition to the 1926 Railway Labor Act, pay no attention to the National Mediation Board, who needs em. Management can simply impose what they want, they are not required to negotiate. All those decisions from the Supremem Court are meaningless, Nic4us has it all figured out.

Thank you oh great Nic4us for clearing up all this confusion, you are a true man of genius.

It you are released for self help he sure can.

So keep hoping for the NMB to release you.

 

[767jetz]

You dismiss the fact that the pilots of All American, Allegheny, Lake Central, Mohawk and USAir in the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's, the era you attack never had to strike because they left no doubt to their management where a dispute would lead. A bluff was never made, because the managements of the time, knew it would be called.

Actually, in reality I respect everyone who has ever walked a picket line regardless of what uniform they wore at the time. I also respect anyone who stands up to management and at least has a strike vote to show their unity and intention of striking if management doesn't come to their senses.

But for the sake of keeping you all honest, I decided to play by your (pl) rules for a while to point out the double standards. Apparently you don't like it either. The guilt (or honor) by association game plays both ways.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Another of the urban legends that is passed off as fact. In BK2 the company laid out how the costs they wanted were arrived at. It was the average cost per available seat mile of 5 low cost carriers for each employee group. For pilots, it just happened that the average for the 5 lcc's was within a few of hundredths of a cent/asm of AWA.

Jim

In fact, when our most recent concessionary negotiations began we were told by Jerry Glass and other members of management our labor costs had to mirror those of America West.

http://www.afausairways.org/Eline/aug28_05.htm

 

[prechilill]

I'm saying that Piedmont doesn't count. You work for USAirways. USAir or USAirways pilots have never been on strike. Therefore you are part of a group of pilots who never stood up to management and went on strike. Just like you (pl) say that USAirways has no scabs, yet one of your union reps scabbed at CO. So if you(pl) don't count him as a scab, you get no credit for the strike you had at PI either.

It's like saying you have a super bowl team and only a few players went to the super bowl when they played for other teams earlier in their careers. USAir pilots have never demonstrated they are a super bowl team (i.e. executing a strike) and to claim otherwise is ridiculous.

 

[crazystnic]

I have the lists and the numbers if you want to PM me. I know on the surface it doesn't make sense. But if you could actually analyze the lists you would see why the numbers are the way they are. We have fewer line pilots now than we did in 2005. You are right. Almost all 99 hires will have a chance to be a captain within 5 years. It may be as little as 3 years for some depending on how many go out on MED due to being 63+.

*****************************
well that depends on the NIC does it not?

I'm about 600 numbers from CPT now on group 2....

but if the NIC kicks in I get slammed.... and may never make CPT..

 

[nic4us]

Oh ture man of genius. You have cracked the code and busted it wide open. Yes Mr. Parker can do whatever he wants. He can impose a contract, impose a seniority list, he can do what Judge Wake can't.

Pay no attenition to the 1926 Railway Labor Act, pay no attention to the National Mediation Board, who needs em. Management can simply impose what they want, they are not required to negotiate. All those decisions from the Supremem Court are meaningless, Nic4us has it all figured out.

Thank you oh great Nic4us for clearing up all this confusion, you are a true man of genius.

Here is a little more info for you since you now have such high regard for my opinion.

When you lose the LOA grievence, all the hypothetical points of what may or may not happen are moot. Personally, I think you are going to lose, so none of my prognostication will come to pass, I am just pointing out that it would be a very shallow victory at best.

Here is the flip side of the coin, and the much more likely outcome. You lose, and remain on LOA93 indefinitely, while usapa continues down its dead end DOH road. The company not willing to hitch its wagon to usapa's DFR horses, particularly when that dead end road has no cul de sac to turn the wagon around.

Further, Kasher may come back with something in his ruling that may make usapa regret filing the thing in the first place.

 

[GuntherA320]

Let's save it for a beer after the dust settles and emotions simmer down a little?

mmmm beeeeer......you found my weak spot. Its a deal.

 

[Barrister]

No doubt, management wanted the merger. But even absent the merger, UA pilots had the unity, the board seat, and the veto rights. True it may have been a longer battle, but C2000 would still have been "On Top" if not on time. That was management's catch phrase by the way, when they were selling ESOP. Don't think for a NY minute that the attempted merger with USAir was the main player in C2000. Yes it helped motivate them, but it would have happened anyway. Even before the merger announcement ALPA and Dubinsky targeted the "DELTA DOT." That was the point on the graph of payscales where DL negotiated their 777 pay rate. Extrapolating from there is where we got our pay rates for all the other fleets. On top had to be above the Delta Dot, regardless of the USAir merger.




Obviously losing the entire investment to BK was a huge loss. Buying USAir was an ENORMOUSLY expensive venture. The "market clearing price" as they called it, to ward off any higher bidders was ridiculously over the real value. I don't know what they were smoking. Plus during the ESOP years, UA was making between $1B and $2B per year profit. It was a cash cow. They even bought back outstanding stock to the tune of $2Billion just to boost the share price. That was the kicker. As the share price peaked, management sold stock and walked away with millions. The biggest mistake of the ESOP was to force us to hold the stock until retirement or leaving the company. If we had been able to cash out like they did, the payoff would have been several million dollars for senior captains.

If the Queen had balls she would be the King!! So the fact that Wolf spent 2 billion over at U to buy back stock
holds no sway with you. Think we could have used 2 Bil cash after 9/11.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[GuntherA320]

*****************************
well that depends on the NIC does it not?

I'm about 600 numbers from CPT now on group 2....

but if the NIC kicks in I get slammed.... and may never make CPT..

With the current pace of negotiations and the backlog of the court system in AZ due to John Roll's death, I don't think you're gonna have to worry about the NIC for quite sometime.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/26/20110126gabrielle-giffords-judge-john-roll-death-causes-judicial-emergency.html

 

[Pi brat]

I'm saying that Piedmont doesn't count. You work for USAirways. USAir or USAirways pilots have never been on strike. Therefore you are part of a group of pilots who never stood up to management and went on strike. Just like you (pl) say that USAirways has no scabs, yet one of your union reps scabbed at CO. So if you(pl) don't count him as a scab, you get no credit for the strike you had at PI either.

Well, that is a matter of opinion. The US pilots for years and years never had a need to strike. In my time I can't say I know of a time that we should have struck and didn't. Glad to see you are not disputing the PI carrying UA water strike

Did you see him scab? The CLT rep admitted he did what he was accused of, the other said they got it wrong and he never wore a CO uniform.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I guess you have not read the transcripts from the arbitration. The company said $350 million. The Kirby is $122 million.

For 350 mil the company would do something about that.

Yes, they would do something about that. As Arbitrator Kasher told them: "If you owe it, you will pay it."

 

[No Land Green]

But I am glad you agree there were not 800 retirements in 2005 to 2007 as another poster claimed (no land green, I think).

I never stated the above.

 

[Code Name V]

Here is a little more info for you since you now have such high regard for my opinion.

When you lose the LOA grievence, all the hypothetical points of what may or may not happen are moot. Personally, I think you are going to lose, so none of my prognostication will come to pass, I am just pointing out that it would be a very shallow victory at best.

Here is the flip side of the coin, and the much more likely outcome. You lose, and remain on LOA93 indefinitely, while usapa continues down its dead end DOH road. The company not willing to hitch its wagon to usapa's DFR horses, particularly when that dead end road has no cul de sac to turn the wagon around.

Further, Kasher may come back with something in his ruling that may make usapa regret filing the thing in the first place.

Hey Nic,

Do you grow your own mushrooms?

V