US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Barrister]

Just for the record, UA's Contract 2000 was the best, richest pilot contract the industry has ever seen. 747 rates were around the $300 range. Not to mention the work rules. Due to world events starting on 9/11 it was short lived and won't be seen again for a very long time.

Just for the record between the buyout ESOP years ago under Wolf
no pilot group has lost more money than the UAL guys. You bought
the company and then took pay cuts and then went BR........
just for the record of course!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[767jetz]

And tell us, what little event gave the UA pilots the leverage to achieve that great contract, one they didn't seem to be able to pull off before?

Simple answer... ESOP. While the ESOP contract sucked, and in hindsight the ESOP investment was wiped out in BK for pennies on the dollar, the one thing we did gain by buying out the company was a seat on the Board of Directors, and veto rights. It was a very powerful position to be in during contract negotiations and a merger. In the end we were sold out on the pre-nup by PeterPaul. But C2000 was a direct result of leverage and unity. When a unified group works to the rule of the contract, decides not to help out in ways not required by contract, and enforces their contract at every turn, things do start to happen. Just reference what others refer to as "The Summer of Love."

One more point about C2000... When the ESOP contract was signed, it was agreed between management and pilots that the next contract would be "On Top and On Time." It was to be industry leading and signed by the amendable date. That was agreed to long before the USAir merger was announced. When management reneged on that agreement after our enormous investment to buy a majority of the company, they sealed their fate and cemented our resolve.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I dunno, please tell us! What little event helped the UAL pilots???

UAL was attempting a merger with US Airways and the UAL pilots were wreaking havoc on their system with a slowdown in the summer of 2000. It was frightening both legislators and justice officials as to what would happen in a subsequent labor dispute if they allowed an airline to consolidate 25-30% of the industry. In order to buy peace and prevent further damage to the ongoing DOJ review and perception during congressional hearings and protect their merger aspirations, UAL management who wanted the deal, paid what it took to buy peace with their pilots.

Absent the merger scenario and subsequent leverage it provided, they would likely have played a lot harder with the pilots.

 

[Pi brat]

Simple answer... ESOP. While the ESOP contract sucked, and in hindsight the ESOP investment was wiped out in BK for pennies on the dollar, the one thing we did gain by buying out the company was a seat on the Board of Directors, and veto rights. It was a very powerful position to be in during contract negotiations and a merger. In the end we were sold out on the pre-nup by PeterPaul. But C2000 was a direct result of leverage and unity. When a unified group works to the rule of the contract, decides not to help out in ways not required by contract, and enforces their contract at every turn, things do start to happen. Just reference what others refer to as "The Summer of Love."

Yeah, and what effect did the proposed US/UA merger have?

 

[prechilill]

There were about 500 people junior to Monda that did not return from furlough. All you have to do is look at a 2005 seniority list and then compare the bottom 99 hire that is still here to where Monda is today.

Correct, but you have 600 active pilots below Monda right now as we type. I think your 500 number is high because there have only been about 800 people hired/ returned from furlough below Monda total and only about 600 remain right now. By my count 220 pilots junior to Monda are not actively flying anymore.
But I am glad you agree there were not 800 retirements in 2005 to 2007 as another poster claimed (no land green, I think).
As a 99 hire you will be getting close to Captain, I think regardless of how long a joint CBA takes you will be left seat in five years.

 

[767jetz]

Piedmont is now part of US Airways and the biggest remaining chunk of the company is the PI part.

Not my problem. I'm holding you to the rules made up by your cohorts. I am not the one who plays the guilt by association game or who said "you are the company you keep" line. You can thank your fellow partners in crime for that.

As I've said before, I'm quite happy judging individuals by their actions and not that of their peers. But when you guys don't follow the same rules, then the game is on. Maybe if you spent some time reigning in your more offensive and provoking members here, this place would be a bit more civil. Do you PM them and admonish them for their behavior? Or are you afraid of being ostracized, and save you comments for those on the other side alone?

 

[767jetz]

Actually, absent merger costs they had a pretty good quarter. Looks like the CO team is cleaning that lousy outfit up!

Finally something I can agree with! I only wish they clean out some more of the UA trash management team.

 

[Pi brat]

Not my problem. I'm holding you to the rules made up by your cohorts. I am not the one who plays the guilt by association game or who said "you are the company you keep" line. You can thank your fellow partners in crime for that.

As I've said before, I'm quite happy judging individuals by their actions and not that of their peers. But when you guys don't follow the same rules, then the game is on. Maybe if you spent some time reigning in your more offensive and provoking members here, this place would be a bit more civil. Do you PM them and admonish them for their behavior? Or are you afraid of being ostracized, and save you comments for those on the other side alone?

?????????????????

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Not my problem. I'm holding you to the rules made up by your cohorts. I am not the one who plays the guilt by association game or who said "you are the company you keep" line. You can thank your fellow partners in crime for that.

As I've said before, I'm quite happy judging individuals by their actions and not that of their peers. But when you guys don't follow the same rules, then the game is on. Maybe if you spent some time reigning in your more offensive and provoking members here, this place would be a bit more civil. Do you PM them and admonish them for their behavior? Or are you afraid of being ostracized, and save you comments for those on the other side alone?

You dismiss the fact that the pilots of All American, Allegheny, Lake Central, Mohawk and USAir in the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's, the era you attack never had to strike because they left no doubt to their management where a dispute would lead. A bluff was never made, because the managements of the time, knew it would be called.

 

[GuntherA320]

Correct, but you have 600 active pilots below Monda right now as we type. I think your 500 number is high because there have only been about 800 people hired/ returned from furlough below Monda total and only about 600 remain right now. By my count 220 pilots junior to Monda are not actively flying anymore.
But I am glad you agree there were not 800 retirements in 2005 to 2007 as another poster claimed (no land green, I think).
As a 99 hire you will be getting close to Captain, I think regardless of how long a joint CBA takes you will be left seat in five years.

I have the lists and the numbers if you want to PM me. I know on the surface it doesn't make sense. But if you could actually analyze the lists you would see why the numbers are the way they are. We have fewer line pilots now than we did in 2005. You are right. Almost all 99 hires will have a chance to be a captain within 5 years. It may be as little as 3 years for some depending on how many go out on MED due to being 63+.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Correct, but you have 600 active pilots below Monda right now as we type. I think your 500 number is high because there have only been about 800 people hired/ returned from furlough below Monda total and only about 600 remain right now. By my count 220 pilots junior to Monda are not actively flying anymore.
But I am glad you agree there were not 800 retirements in 2005 to 2007 as another poster claimed (no land green, I think).
As a 99 hire you will be getting close to Captain, I think regardless of how long a joint CBA takes you will be left seat in five years.

Roughly 800 pilots senior to Monda have retired or left the bid on LTD. The fact he only has 600 pilots below him currently active, is exactly the point Pi Brat was trying to make. The East has shrunk by 200 active pilot positions since May of 2005. If they still had 2800 bid positions as they did then there would have been an additional 200 new hires on the East and he would have 800 active pilots below him matching the attrition rate.

 

[cleardirect]

Why is that? The company has said the cost of snapbacks are around the same dollar amount as the projected cost increase of the "Kirby" proposal. It wouldn't break the bank, but they might claim there isn't any more money to go around. I guess that could suck more for some.

I guess you have not read the transcripts from the arbitration. The company said $350 million. The Kirby is $122 million.

For 350 mil the company would do something about that.

 

[767jetz]

Yeah, and what effect did the proposed US/UA merger have?

No doubt, management wanted the merger. But even absent the merger, UA pilots had the unity, the board seat, and the veto rights. True it may have been a longer battle, but C2000 would still have been "On Top" if not on time. That was management's catch phrase by the way, when they were selling ESOP. Don't think for a NY minute that the attempted merger with USAir was the main player in C2000. Yes it helped motivate them, but it would have happened anyway. Even before the merger announcement ALPA and Dubinsky targeted the "DELTA DOT." That was the point on the graph of payscales where DL negotiated their 777 pay rate. Extrapolating from there is where we got our pay rates for all the other fleets. On top had to be above the Delta Dot, regardless of the USAir merger.

Just for the record between the buyout ESOP years ago under Wolf
no pilot group has lost more money than the UAL guys.

Obviously losing the entire investment to BK was a huge loss. Buying USAir was an ENORMOUSLY expensive venture. The "market clearing price" as they called it, to ward off any higher bidders was ridiculously over the real value. I don't know what they were smoking. Plus during the ESOP years, UA was making between $1B and $2B per year profit. It was a cash cow. They even bought back outstanding stock to the tune of $2Billion just to boost the share price. That was the kicker. As the share price peaked, management sold stock and walked away with millions. The biggest mistake of the ESOP was to force us to hold the stock until retirement or leaving the company. If we had been able to cash out like they did, the payoff would have been several million dollars for senior captains.

 

[prechilill]

I have the lists and the numbers if you want to PM me. I know on the surface it doesn't make sense. But if you could actually analyze the lists you would see why the numbers are the way they are.

Let's save it for a beer after the dust settles and emotions simmer down a little?

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I guess you have not read the transcripts from the arbitration. The company said $350 million. The Kirby is $122 million.

For 350 mil the company would do something about that.

Must be fuzzy math. If you take the number of pilot affected including those who have left on LTD in the interim, but excluding the Emb 190 positions it works out to 2500 pilots x $65,000 annually which includes adjustment to DC payments or about 149 million. A little more than the the "kirby" proposal but far less than 350 million.