US Pilots Labor Discussion

[767jetz]

You and jetz are alpa shills. blah, blah, blah...

You are nothing but a bitter, wanna-be-real-airline-pilot wasting away on LOA 93, and hoping to steal from others to repair your miserable career.

Accept your lot in life. You might live longer.

I am THE messenger.

 

[767jetz]

You, on the other hand, wish for a pilot in your own company to achieve and possibly maintain a lower salary, purely out of spite, apparently not realizing that the other employee achieving a higher salary, might raise the bar and thus raise your own salary.

I certainly would not say that you think in a relatively intelligent manner.

Are you kidding me? This comment coming from the same group who claims DOH and stapling the west is "fair." Your LOA93 debacle is the biggest pressure point and motivator to eventually get you to honor your commitments and responsibilities. It has nothing to do with spite. It has to do with exerting pressure. Eventually the pain of the situation you created will be USAPA's undoing. You can't be so dense to not see that.

AWA320 is 100% right. Sitting back and watching USAPA implode, with the loss of the LOA93 grievance as the catalyst, is the best strategy.

 

[767jetz]

Jim,

Someone claimed you have a son or a close relative on the West seniority list. Is this true? If so, it would explain a lot.

Of course it couldn't possibly be that he sees your DOH scheme for what it really is, and can't stand dishonorable, lying, thieves... could it?

If I see someone getting mugged on a street corner, it doesn't matter if I know the person or not. I will have the same response. The west has been the target of an east mugging since day one.

 

[traderjake]

You, on the other hand, wish for a pilot in your own company to achieve and possibly maintain a lower salary, purely out of spite, apparently not realizing that the other employee achieving a higher salary, might raise the bar and thus raise your own salary. I said I observed some interesting things about the way you think. I certainly would not say that you think in a relatively intelligent manner.

Translation: Let me steal your job and raise my own pay then you might get some crumbs thrown your way.

You sound like the Captain that told me "the best way to raise the B scale is to raise the A scale".

An intelligent person would, after three seniority arbitrations in a row went against his position, consider the possibility that he is wrong.

 

[GuntherA320]

Someone? We both know who claimed that. The same "someone" who accused me of being an ALPA rep who single handedly stapled the Empire pilots.

Doesn't matter what I say - all the East posters will believe what they want anyway. Just a word to the wise, however, Nos makes a lot of things up. Like nearly every East poster, you all seem to be convinced that I have some ulterior motive for favoring what I consider is a better starting point for integrating seniority and not just this integration.

Jim

Somehow that paragraph you just wrote didn't answer the question. Do you have a son or relative on the West Seniority list? I don't care what someone else says. Its a straight forward question. I didn't accuse you of this. Someone else did. Do you have a straightforward answer? A "yes" or "no" will suffice. I don't care what your feelings are on the seniority integration.

 

[GuntherA320]

Of course it couldn't possibly be that he sees your DOH scheme for what it really is, and can't stand dishonorable, lying, thieves... could it?

If I see someone getting mugged on a street corner, it doesn't matter if I know the person or not. I will have the same response. The west has been the target of an east mugging since day one.

Jetz,

I know you can't help but chime in. Someone else said Jim had a relative on the West Seniority list. I simply asked if that were true or not. If it wasn't true then why all the huff and puff and a lack of denial from Jim? All he would simply have to say is "No, I don't have a relative on the West Seniority List." But instead of answering the question, he dodged it.

 

[cleardirect]

Nonsense? If someone tells you the sun is 200 miles away, but I can't give you the exact number of miles would you say they might be right, we can't tell?

I don't have 2005 seniority list. I will try to get it from my friend that I got the bid announcement from. But I do have this:

On page 783 nic4us said that in 2005 the west had 1884 pilots on their seniority list. I don't know if that was active or total, but let's go with active and say there was another few hundred and call it 2100, ok. When I look at the combined seniority list from Nic it lists the last pilot as #6520(that seemed high), so 6520 total minus 2100 west would leave 4420 east. The current seniority list on the USAPA web lists the bottom east number as 3494, Sulake. I'm just not finding any numbers that support a theory of the east growing, no matter how you spin it.

That was total, 1884.

Here are the active for both sides.

A ratio based on 167 and 90 B757 Captains
A ratio based on 873 and 767 A320/B737 Captains
A·ratio based on 176 and 87 B757 First Officers
A ratio based on 840 and 718 A320/B737 First Officers.

Plus the active 423 east pilot that got the top of the list.

 

[prechilill]

It's not a ruse!

811 seniority numbers assigned below Monda.

Monda has moved up 450 seniority numbers from where he was in May 2005.

By 2008 the east had added at least another 400 pilots above the flying where Monda was in May 2005 which would account for half the east recall and hiring up through 2008. Can you account for the other 400 pilots hired by 2008? The only possibility was EXTRA flying- correct me if I am wrong.


My summary:
By 2008 the east had sent about 850 recalls/ newhires through indoc.

About 450 active pilots since May 2005 until now have left flying- I can't get the number between 2005 and 2007 which would most likely be markedly smaller, but lets just assume no retirments/ resignations happened after 2008.

How can you account for the other 400 carbon life forms on the east seniority list?

 

[767jetz]

Jetz,

I know you can't help but chime in. Someone else said Jim had a relative on the West Seniority list. I simply asked if that were true or not. If it wasn't true then why all the huff and puff and a lack of denial from Jim? All he would simply have to say is "No, I don't have a relative on the West Seniority List." But instead of answering the question, he dodged it.

To coin a phrase from one of your pals... you are part of a group who can't/won't/refuses to take a simple "no" for an answer. When a simple explanation is given that doesn't fit your group's preconceived notions, it is dismissed in favor of your alternate reality and more lies and attacks by the hit squad.

Want proof? Search this forum for how many times I have been asked a similar question. Then see how many times I have answered it, sometimes with a simple no, and other times with great detail. It makes absolutely no difference when dealing with a myopic group like yours.

As Jim has already pointed out, answers to questions like that are pointless because no matter what he says your attack dogs will believe whatever they want to make up in their head anyway, as proven by their track record.

 

[doh nogo]

Somehow that paragraph you just wrote didn't answer the question. Do you have a son or relative on the West Seniority list? I don't care what someone else says. Its a straight forward question. I didn't accuse you of this. Someone else did. Do you have a straightforward answer? A "yes" or "no" will suffice. I don't care what your feelings are on the seniority integration.

You guys are a laugh a minute. So now knowing someone on the west is classified as an ACCUSATION? What difference does it make if Jim or anyone else for that matter has a relative on the west or not. I doesn't change the validity of his posts. If you are trying to imply bias, that would be the pot calling the kettle black, would it not? You guys are the most blindly biased group of cry babies ever to wear a pilot's uniform.

I would classify your question in the "it's none of your business" category.

So here's a question for you. Are you gay? Seriously, are you a living in a closet or are you outwardly a homosexual? It's a straight forward question. A simple yes or no will suffice. I did not accuse you of it, but it's been said by someone else that you and Nostradamus have had "relations" on your layovers.

 

[luvthe9]

Are you kidding me? This comment coming from the same group who claims DOH and stapling the west is "fair." Your LOA93 debacle is the biggest pressure point and motivator to eventually get you to honor your commitments and responsibilities. It has nothing to do with spite. It has to do with exerting pressure. Eventually the pain of the situation you created will be USAPA's undoing. You can't be so dense to not see that.

AWA320 is 100% right. Sitting back and watching USAPA implode, with the loss of the LOA93 grievance as the catalyst, is the best strategy.

Then with that spiteful logic, a reversion to LOA 84 pay rates with a Kasher decision would warrant the East to then sit back for years and not accept any contract as favorable. Thusly re setting the pressure point on the west. You are another one who cannot see the sense of a pay raise, and play right into the hands of management with whipsawing. Unbelievable. Then again, you are now linked to the ALPA shop with the highest number of UBS in the industry! Even though 320 constantly throws the scab word at the east with UBS, the west has truthfully all the UBS in the combined group, with the east having NONE.NONE! UAL ranks in the highest tier! Although you wish to see USAPA implode, I will remind you that ALPA on this property, imploded years, years ago!

 

[prechilill]

Then with that spiteful logic, a reversion to LOA 84 pay rates with a Kasher decision would warrant the East to then sit back for years and not accept any contract as favorable. Thusly re setting the pressure point on the west. You are another one who cannot see the sense of a pay raise, and play right into the hands of management with whipsawing. Unbelievable. Then again, you are now linked to the ALPA shop with the highest number of UBS in the industry! Even though 320 constantly throws the scab word at the east with UBS, the west has truthfully all the UBS in the combined group, with the east having NONE.NONE! UAL ranks in the highest tier! Although you wish to see USAPA implode, I will remind you that ALPA on this property, imploded years, years ago!

Not wanting to throw your mud but the east has two pilots, both USAPA volunteers who were flying non-union work, one at Mesa and one at CAL. More importantly, your company has been around quite a while and you have never had a strike. Why is that? How did you make your contract improvements without a strike? My thoughts are you piggy backed others: AMR, NWA and UAL. And yes, AMR did go on strike in 95 before Clinton intervened. Point is, the reason you do not have any "scabs" is partly due to the fact you never even went on strike to begin with. ANd that makes one wonder again how you achieved "parity +1" without any assertive labor action? I have my answer and part of it has to do with the rock-em sock-em robots in the CLT union office- you guys are Springer quality for the most part and have no clue about unity and that's probably one factor why you've never struck. The other factor is you had weak airline management. Parker isn't anything like that and this is partly why we are five years post merger and not even close to a contract. Parker has you guys spinning in circles on bankruptcy rates and will keep you there for another three or four years (at least). No unity = no contract

 

[PullUp]

Then with that spiteful logic, a reversion to LOA 84 pay rates with a Kasher decision would warrant the East to then sit back for years and not accept any contract as favorable.

I found a note in the mayonnaise jar on Funk & Wagnel's porch yesterday. They said it was for me to read. It was from Karnak the great prognosticator of the future....
The note explained all about LOA93, the DJ, and the contract. This is what I gleaned:
Here's my take on the LOA93 arb. First is a question: why is it taking soooo long? The choices are fairly simple. The issue is black/white - there really is no gray area to fashion a compromise position.
But, here's the reality: if the decision is favorable to the pilots, it will cost the company a lot of money. You can argue this point until you are blue in the face, but the fact remains that 'a lot of money' equals an unacceptable position to the company and it's investors. Also, the question of a combined contract for the pilots and f/a's has to be taken into consideration. A win for the pilots again makes the combined contract that much more difficult to achieve.
With the DJ, whatever it may be, imminent, it is my estimation that the company will make a good offer soon after the DJ has been rendered, with the caveat that the LOA93 arb be dropped. Perhaps a one-time signing bonus will be given as incentive?
So, USAPA's choice in this scenario will be to present a decent contract for membership ratification and drop the LOA93 arb or refuse both and wait longer for a decision that may well never be ruled on.
As all pilots in USAPA want/need a contract upgrade and the company wants/needs a combined contract, IMO the first option will prevail.
Of course, the USAPA membership must be given a good offer for it to pass.....
And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Cheers.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Not wanting to throw your mud but the east has two pilots, both USAPA volunteers who were flying non-union work, one at Mesa and one at CAL. More importantly, your company has been around quite a while and you have never had a strike. Why is that? How did you make your contract improvements without a strike? My thoughts are you piggy backed others: AMR, NWA and UAL. And yes, AMR did go on strike in 95 before Clinton intervened. Point is, the reason you do not have any "scabs" is partly due to the fact you never even went on strike to begin with. ANd that makes one wonder again how you achieved "parity +1" without any assertive labor action? I have my answer and part of it has to do with the rock-em sock-em robots in the CLT union office- you guys are Springer quality for the most part and have no clue about unity and that's probably one factor why you've never struck.

When Parity+1 was negotiated and ratified it was concessionary and was thought to bring about a 8-10% pay cut because US Airways had the most generous contract in the industry along with the tightest scope despite the ALPA pattern bargaining scheme beginning its degredation. The airlines pilot groups you mention, AMR, NWA, UAL, and DAL had envied US Airways pilot contract for decades. No piggybacking and certainly nothing to do with ALPA. The main architects, Joe Rahl and Karl Colbath long retired, didn't create the scheduling system and duty rigs with the aid of ALPA as the Allegheny/USAir contract stood alone in many regards to the others. The USAir contract actually began its downward march and move toward the lesser contracts of NWA, UAL, and DAL in the early nineties as part of the ALPA pattern bargaining scheme.

So at the time it was negotiated Parity+1 was no proud achievement and had the first review come before UAL's contract of 2000, the pilots would have taken a clipping under that contract.

 

[prechilill]

When Parity+1 was negotiated and ratified it was concessionary and was thought to bring about a 8-10% pay cut because US Airways had the most generous contract in the industry along with the tightest scope despite the ALPA pattern bargaining scheme beginning its degredation. The airlines pilot groups you mention, AMR, NWA, UAL, and DAL had envied US Airways pilot contract for decades. No piggybacking and certainly nothing to do with ALPA. The main architects, Joe Rahl and Karl Colbath long retired, didn't create the scheduling system and duty rigs with the aid of ALPA as the Allegheny/USAir contract stood alone in many regards to the others. The USAir contract actually began its downward march and move toward the lesser contracts of NWA, UAL, and DAL in the early nineties as part of the ALPA pattern bargaining scheme.

So at the time it was negotiated Parity+1 was no proud achievement and had the first review come before UAL's contract of 2000, the pilots would have taken a clipping under that contract.

And you guys took took "parity+1" without so much of a hiccup...Then did the same with LOA 93. See the pattern?

Thanks for the added info, btw. I think you guys are incapable of going on strike.