US Pilots Labor Discussion

[oldiebutgoody]

And you guys took took "parity+1" without so much of a hiccup...Then did the same with LOA 93. See the pattern?

So did we. That's part of why ALPA is off the property.

Thanks for the added info, btw. I think you guys are incapable of going on strike.

There are some much more creative methods of "self help" these days.

 

[Reed Richards]

Not wanting to throw your mud but the east has two pilots, both USAPA volunteers who were flying non-union work, one at Mesa and one at CAL. More importantly, your company has been around quite a while and you have never had a strike. Why is that? How did you make your contract improvements without a strike? My thoughts are you piggy backed others: AMR, NWA and UAL. And yes, AMR did go on strike in 95 before Clinton intervened. Point is, the reason you do not have any "scabs" is partly due to the fact you never even went on strike to begin with. ANd that makes one wonder again how you achieved "parity +1" without any assertive labor action? I have my answer and part of it has to do with the rock-em sock-em robots in the CLT union office- you guys are Springer quality for the most part and have no clue about unity and that's probably one factor why you've never struck. The other factor is you had weak airline management. Parker isn't anything like that and this is partly why we are five years post merger and not even close to a contract. Parker has you guys spinning in circles on bankruptcy rates and will keep you there for another three or four years (at least). No unity = no contract

Prior to airplanes flying into buildings we were doing just fine, and AWA was still at the bottom of the industry. Not that I don't wish there had been a strike here (implementation of the B scale in 85 would have been a good time to start), but your comparison rings hollow. AWA was established in 1984, and I don't remember you ever going on strike either (please correct me if necessary.)

As to scabs and why they exist, don't forget we have many, many pilots (myself included) who went on strike at their previous airlines, some losing their jobs in the process. Also, there were job actions at some of the airlines that now make up US Airways. The PHX base is packed with pilots who DID scab at other airlines. You have scabs because your airline was founded with scabs. We accidently hired scabs over the years, but once the union found out they were shown the door during probation. Not the case at AWA, since the premise of being a scab was never a problem. We had a few slip through in Shuttle merger, and I am told they are retired. And of course our resident CLT rep who is at least a union buster.

So basically you are full of it in your analysis of why we don't have scabs. You folks always amaze me in how convoluted your arguments are..this one takes the cake. You are actually finding fault with us because we DON’T have scabs here. Unbelievable.

RR

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

And you guys took took "parity+1" without so much of a hiccup...Then did the same with LOA 93. See the pattern?

Thanks for the added info, btw. I think you guys are incapable of going on strike.

There in lays the widely divergent contract expectations of the East and West pilots. The East pilots view LOA 93 as incredibly concessionary and as a "temporary" sacrifice and investment in their futures. If LOA 93 had been a mirror of your current agreement, it would have been viewed the same. That is the culture and history. The West unfortunately has the best they have ever had and so the Kirby proposal is just a continuation of that mindset. While the word scab is thrown about with little regard, the West pilot group was born out of a scab mentality and for decades was half or less their peers in pay when you include in benefits and retirement. Post strike Continental with no union was more desirable to go work for than America West and unless someone had ties or a desire to live in PHX or Vegas or simply couldn't get on somewhere else, it was simply used as a stepping stone to get a "real job". The high attrition created by that turn style employment allowed the Wien/Ansestt culture to perpetuate poor working conditions and those that stayed for the longer term were conditioned to low wages and poor conditions. You consider the Kirby proposal a deal that ought to be looked at but by any other standard than the post 9/11 ch 11 era, it is still pathetic and a continuation of the cultural history of the America West legacy.

The majority of the East pilot group, regardless of the seniority issue looks at something like that as very concessionary and a non-starter. How you guys bridge that gap, who knows but throwing around the scab word without knowing history is driving the divide wider.

 

[Pi brat]

811 seniority numbers assigned below Monda.

Monda has moved up 450 seniority numbers from where he was in May 2005.

By 2008 the east had added at least another 400 pilots above the flying where Monda was in May 2005 which would account for half the east recall and hiring up through 2008. Can you account for the other 400 pilots hired by 2008? The only possibility was EXTRA flying- correct me if I am wrong.


My summary:
By 2008 the east had sent about 850 recalls/ newhires through indoc.

About 450 active pilots since May 2005 until now have left flying- I can't get the number between 2005 and 2007 which would most likely be markedly smaller, but lets just assume no retirments/ resignations happened after 2008.

How can you account for the other 400 carbon life forms on the east seniority list?

prechilill,

I will try again to explain this to and be civil, but the civil part is hard because almost everything you have posted on here has been arrogant and condescending. But I will try.

You are wrong, at least in the way you have worded it. Maybe you are using terms in a different way than most pilots I know. We would need several things to really compare May 2005 to today-total hulls, block hours flown, total seniority lists and active seniority lists. I don't have all that, but I provided you with the bid announcements that show what is available for a line pilot to bid, and it clearly shows what has happened on the line. Let me try explain what has happened over here.

The ' 05 bid announcement show 2782 system pilot positions to bid. The March 2011 announcement shows 2592. That is 190 less flying jobs in 2011 than in 2005. Now, as Jim said, the bid announcement does not show check airmen, sup pilots, or certain pilots that off the line for various things, so there could be more of those pilots now than in 2005, but I really don't think the ratio is that much higher. Several things happened between then and now. The biggest factor was that many pilots left the seniority list, either because of regular retirements before the age 60 change, early retirements, death, and no small change-resignation. Monda was the bottom active pilot on May 2005, but he had around 1500 pilots on the list below him that were furloughed. While we were waiting for the merger to proceed many pilots retired/left and by the time Nic issued his list, Monda has several hundred pilots below him that had returned from furlough.

A lot of this comes down to how you define growth. I take it that you consider growth as any airplane you get that you didn't have before. I, and most pilots I know, consider growth when the net total of aircraft exceeds what you had before(or really total block hours). Even though I don't have the numbers in front of me, I am certain that the total number of aircraft on the east are less than what it was in May 2005(why would Parker say we are near the min fleet if not?). Yes, the east took delivery of extra 757s, EMB-190s, and A330-200s, but we parked 757s, 737s and a few A320s during the time period, so those were not growth aircraft, but REPLACEMENT AIRCRAFT.

As I said, I don't have every number, but I attached the bid notices from the company that show 2592 positions for line pilots to bid in 2011 vs 2782 in 2005(and around 150 of those "new" positions are low paying 190 slots), so I don't see how you could come to the conclusion that we have "grown". And the 2005 numbers don't include the MDA pilots that were flying under the US certificate.

I do believe the west has had been cut more than the east, but that has been the company's decision.

As for the carbon life forms, most of them were already on the list, they just returned to the seats vacated by other pilots. Attrition.

I hope this helps.

 

[prechilill]

Prior to airplanes flying into buildings we were doing just fine, and AWA was still at the bottom of the industry. Not that I don't wish there had been a strike here (implementation of the B scale in 85 would have been a good time to start), but your comparison rings hollow. AWA was established in 1984, and I don't remember you ever going on strike either (please correct me if necessary.)

As to scabs and why they exist, don't forget we have many, many pilots (myself included) who went on strike at their previous airlines, some losing their jobs in the process. The PHX base is packed with pilots who DID scab at other airlines. You have scabs because you airline was founded with scabs. We accidently hired scabs over the years, but once the union found out they were shown the door during probation. Not the case a AWA, since the premise of being a scab was never a problem. We had a few slip through in Shuttle merger, and I am told they are retired. And of course our resident CLT rep who is at least a union buster.

So basically you are full of it in your analysis of why we don't have scabs. You folks always amaze me in how convoluted your arguments are..this one takes the cake. You are actually finding fault with us because we DON’T have scabs here. Unbelievable.

RR

That's the trouble with you, Reed, you don't answer questions. Again, USAir never went on strike and after spending five years with you I can see why. NOw that you are on the worst industry rates you have no clue how to get off of them. Three years and counting with no end in sight- seems that alone makes your above post look silly.

 

[No Land Green]

Jim,


EDIT: It is amazing how Collelo has gone from furloughed to 767 first office in three years- that alone is pretty indicative of the growth in flying on the east.

.....ATTRITION, not GROWTH.......without the management enhancements in LOA93, the East would have needed to start recalling furloughed pilots in 2005 with retirements alone....

 

[prechilill]

prechilill,

I will try again to explain this to and be civil, but the civil part is hard because almost everything you have posted on here has been arrogant and condescending. But I will try.

You are wrong, at least in the way you have worded it. Maybe you are using terms in a different way than most pilots I know. We would need several things to really compare May 2005 to today-total hulls, block hours flown, total seniority lists and active seniority lists. I don't have all that, but I provided you with the bid announcements that show what is available for a line pilot to bid, and it clearly shows what has happened on the line. Let me try explain what has happened over here.

The ' 05 bid announcement show 2782 system pilot positions to bid. The March 2011 announcement shows 2592. That is 190 less flying jobs in 2011 than in 2005. Now, as Jim said, the bid announcement does not show check airmen, sup pilots, or certain pilots that off the line for various things, so there could be more of those pilots now than in 2005, but I really don't think the ratio is that much higher. Several things happened between then and now. The biggest factor was that many pilots left the seniority list, either because of regular retirements before the age 60 change, early retirements, death, and no small change-resignation. Monda was the bottom active pilot on May 2005, but he had around 1500 pilots on the list below him that were furloughed. While we were waiting for the merger to proceed many pilots retired/left and by the time Nic issued his list, Monda has several hundred pilots below him that had returned from furlough.

A lot of this comes down to how you define growth. I take it that you consider growth as any airplane you get that you didn't have before. I, and most pilots I know, consider growth when the net total of aircraft exceeds what you had before(or really total block hours). Even though I don't have the numbers in front of me, I am certain that the total number of aircraft on the east are less than what it was in May 2005. Yes, the east took delivery of extra 757s, EMB-190s, and A330-200s, but we parked 757s, 737s and a few A320s during the time period, so those were not growth aircraft, but REPLACEMENT AIRCRAFT.

As I said, I don't have every number, but I attached the bid notices from the company that show 2592 positions for line pilots to bid in 2011 vs 2782 in 2005, so I don't see how you could come to the conclusion that we have "grown".

I do believe the west has had been cut more than the east, but that has been the company's decision.

I hope this helps.

PI Brat,
Thanks for the post, I will dissect it further when I get a chance. My apologies for being condescending towards you.
Regarding the 2592 number, I see that on the bids but Monda is listed (ironically) as #2592 on the newest seniority list plus there are 600 active pilots below him not listed as LOA, furloughed, etc. That 2592 head count number you mention is way off is my point which means that number (the bid sheet) is completely different from what the latest seniority least reads for active pilots. Even if you take out all of the absent pilots on the latest seniority list you are still 500+ numbers higher on the seniority list than the number posted on the bid sheets from the east. On the west there isn't a discrepancy between the latest bid numbers and the active pilots listed on the seniority list and I cannot reconcile the discrepancy for the east. So my question for the company then is how can you have almost 700 more active pilots listed on your seniority list than the "total head count" from the bid packages? The only thing I can think of is frozen pilots are not listed on the bid package because they are listed all over the latest seniority list and when you account for those entries (frozen on equipment) I can then come pretty close to matching the east list numbers with the bid package numbers.
But again, in reference to my 700 number a few pages ago, I calculated that from the east seniority list below Monda. I assumed the majority was growth because there is no way the east had 700 retirements/ LOA's in two and a half years and the numbers seem to indicate most of the people going through indoc since 2005 were for growth, I estimate 66% of them.

 

[Pi brat]

PI Brat,
If you can reconcile the numbers for me I would sincerely appreciate it. No bashing, no vitriol, consider me stupid- just explain how Monda can have 600 some odd pilots below him on the 2011 seniority list when the east is supposedly barely above minimums. And this doesn't even include the pilots who came back to the company since the PID from a leave of absence who were ahead of Monda.

Just saw this one. I don't have those lists, so no I can't, but I believe most of them are for the reasons I gave above. Here's a question for you: If we have "grown" that much, not just replaced pilots, why don't we have more positions to bid? We were flying under the same contract in 2005 as we are now, so I don't see it as each pilot flying much more time, but that could be a factor. I believe the biggest chunk is the pilots that left that were senior to Monda.

 

[No Land Green]

Just saw this one. I don't have those lists, so no I can't, but I believe most of them are for the reasons I gave above. Here's a question for you: If we have "grown" that much, not just replaced pilots, why don't we have more positions to bid? We were flying under the same contract in 2005 as we are now, so I don't see it as each pilot flying much more time, but that could be a factor. I believe the biggest chunk is the pilots that left that were senior to Monda.

In 2007, pre age 65, I moved up 385 numbers on the list.......retirements, attrition, whatever other reason one can come up with.........hope this helps........

 

[Pi brat]

PI Brat,
Thanks for the post, I will dissect it further when I get a chance. My apologies for being condescending towards you.
Regarding the 2592 number, I see that on the bids but Monda is listed (ironically) as #2592 on the newest seniority list plus there are 600 active pilots below him not listed as LOA, furloughed, etc. That 2592 head count number you mention is way off is my point which means that number (the bid sheet) is completely different from what the latest seniority least reads for active pilots. Even if you take out all of the absent pilots on the latest seniority list you are still 500+ numbers higher on the seniority list than the number posted on the bid sheets from the east. On the west there isn't a discrepancy between the latest bid numbers and the active pilots listed on the seniority list and I cannot reconcile the discrepancy for the east. So my question for the company then is how can you have almost 700 more active pilots listed on your seniority list than the "total head count" from the bid packages? The only thing I can think of is frozen pilots are not listed on the bid package because they are listed all over the latest seniority list and when you account for those entries (frozen on equipment) I can then come pretty close to matching the east list numbers with the bid package numbers.
But again, in reference to my 700 number a few pages ago, I calculated that from the east seniority list below Monda. I assumed the majority was growth because there is no way the east had 700 retirements/ LOA's in two and a half years and the numbers seem to indicate most of the people going through indoc since 2005 were for growth, I estimate 66% of them.

That goes back to what Jim said about how pilots are listed. That announcement is actual flying positions, not seniority numbers. My number is somewhere around 1800. There are only about 1300 captains, but I'm a captain, how can that be? Because there are that many pilots on the list ahead of me that are not actually flying the line. They are on medical(lots!), check airmen, management, LOA etc. The number of pilots that we have on our list that are not flying is staggering.

 

[prechilill]

Just saw this one. I don't have those lists, so no I can't, but I believe most of them are for the reasons I gave above. Here's a question for you: If we have "grown" that much, not just replaced pilots, why don't we have more positions to bid? We were flying under the same contract in 2005 as we are now, so I don't see it as each pilot flying much more time, but that could be a factor. I believe the biggest chunk is the pilots that left that were senior to Monda.

PIB,
That could be, I seem to think the numbers point to 1/3 attrition and 2/3 restoration/ regrowth of flying from the low of May 2005 numbers. Monda moved up 400 numbers over five years but he also added about 600 people below him (according to the east seniority list.
Do you know if both block hour mins are from the PID date?

 

[prechilill]

That goes back to what Jim said about how pilots are listed. That announcement is actual flying positions, not seniority numbers. My number is somewhere around 1800. There are only about 1300 captains, but I'm a captain, how can that be? Because there are that many pilots on the list ahead of me that are not actually flying the line. They are on medical(lots!), check airmen, management, LOA etc. The number of pilots that we have on our list that are not flying is staggering.

But aren't all pilots ahead of on medical listed as "medical" on the seniority list? (i.e. isn't the current seniority list accurate as far as each pilot's status?)
By your logic of no growth that means all 600 active pilots below Monda were for attrition. When you look at the attrition since 2008 it averages about 30 per year, which means another 500 must have occurred in two years. Then also you have the others listed below Monda as inactive which is another 200 jobs unaccounted for in the "no growth" model. The numbers do not add up.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Just saw this one. I don't have those lists, so no I can't, but I believe most of them are for the reasons I gave above. Here's a question for you: If we have "grown" that much, not just replaced pilots, why don't we have more positions to bid? We were flying under the same contract in 2005 as we are now, so I don't see it as each pilot flying much more time, but that could be a factor. I believe the biggest chunk is the pilots that left that were senior to Monda.

You couldn't be more clear. The East had 270 aircraft in May 2005, and even including the 15 E190's which are not protected by the Group 2, 202 aircraft minimum has 217 today. You can never explain that prior to the recalls, POTA and 95 hours a month and the phone ringing off the hook was the norm and according to any flight ops source the recalls would have started sooner but were held off because of the hostile DAL buyout bid. In 2005, there were 2782 active bid positions or pilots actively flying and because of under staffing there really there should have been around 3000 to stop the constant priority trip assignments. US Airways was retiring 250-300 at age 60 which continued right up to December 2007, which accounts for another 500-600. Since then, there has been around a 100 early retirements or resignations along with the chunk of 40 that retired early in the spring of last year with the early out money. Along with that, as the pilot group ages and nears 65, there have been an increasing net number of pilots leaving the bid to LTD, over 100 in the last 3 years.

So you analysis is correct, the East pilot active bid positions have shrunk by 200 hundred in the last 6 years but the attrition due to age 60, prior to Dec 2007, early retirement/resignation, and pilots leaving the bid to LTD is over 800, the vast majority senior to Monda. Its pretty easy math but it flies in the face of West perception and bolsters the argument of the East stance and why attrition, if you want to use career protection or expectation is exactly that and therein lays the resistance in wanting to accept it.

 

[No Land Green]

PIB,
That could be, I seem to think the numbers point to 1/3 attrition and 2/3 restoration/ regrowth of flying from the low of May 2005 numbers. Monda moved up 400 numbers over five years but he also added about 600 people below him (according to the east seniority list.
Do you know if both block hour mins are from the PID date?

My relative position has changed very little since the age 60 rule change to 65, but before that it was rising and going to rise quickly. That's been the crux of the whole issue here all along, the East has a very high rate of retirement attrition. Not even ALPA National had the fortitude to address that issue, nor many other industry changing issues, i.e. Defined Benefit Retirement Plans.......We all want growth at this airline for both sides, problem is once again we are run by Real Estate Brokers.......

 

[prechilill]

You couldn't be more clear. The East had 270 aircraft in May 2005, and even including the 15 E190's which are not protected by the Group 2, 202 aircraft minimum has 217 today. You can never explain that prior to the recalls, POTA and 95 hours a month and the phone ringing off the hook was the norm and according to any flight ops source the recalls would have started sooner but were held off because of the hostile DAL buyout bid. In 2005, there were 2782 active bid positions or pilots actively flying and because of under staffing there really there should have been around 3000 to stop the constant priority trip assignments. US Airways was retiring 250-300 at age 60 which continued right up to December 2007, which accounts for another 500-600. Since then, there has been around a 100 early retirements or resignations along with the chunk of 40 that retired early in the spring of last year with the early out money. Along with that, as the pilot group ages and nears 65, there have been an increasing net number of pilots leaving the bid to LTD, over 100 in the last 3 years.

So you analysis is correct, the East pilot active bid positions have shrunk by 200 hundred in the last 6 years but the attrition due to age 60, prior to Dec 2007, early retirement/resignation, and pilots leaving the bid to LTD is over 800, the vast majority senior to Monda. Its pretty easy math but it flies in the face of West perception and bolsters the argument of the East stance and why attrition, if you want to use career protection or expectation is exactly that and therein lays the resistance in wanting to accept it.

Explain then how Monda moved up only 400 numbers in five years if you said there were 800 retirements in two years? Your math doesn't add up.