US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

But aren't all pilots ahead of on medical listed as "medical" on the seniority list? (i.e. isn't the current seniority list accurate as far as each pilot's status?)
By your logic of no growth that means all 600 active pilots below Monda were for attrition. When you look at the attrition since 2008 it averages about 30 per year, which means another 500 must have occurred in two years. Then also you have the others listed below Monda as inactive which is another 200 jobs unaccounted for in the "no growth" model. The numbers do not add up.

I may have to go to work, so I don't have much time to look at this, but I did see one thing you might have missed.Disclaimer-I think this is how it worked: When we got the EMB190s guys on furlough could bypass return for it. A lot of guys did that because of the pay, so we brought in the CEL pilots and had to hire pilots to fill the jobs. Then the music stopped and we furloughed, but those guys are still on the list.

It is true that the additions of the 757s, and A330s helped the east and were not shared with the west to your detriment. But, without them they would have had to do something as we are also close to the min fleet, and the EMBs don't count, for good reason. I don't have the block hour numbers.

 

[No Land Green]

Explain then how Monda moved up only 400 numbers in five years if you said there were 800 retirements in two years? Your math doesn't add up.

If you were on the east list for the last 25 years you would understand it. We are living it and have lived it. Gorgeous summed it up well in his above post. This is why the Nic Award was the last straw with ALPA National.

The East attrition will pick up again in the next two years and the numbers will be staggering again, and not because of growth.....

 

[prechilill]

If you were on the east list for the last 25 years you would understand it. We are living it and have lived it. Gorgeous summed it up well in his above post. This is why the Nic Award was the last straw with ALPA National.

The East attrition will pick up again in the next two years and the numbers will be staggering again, and not because of growth.....

Another non- answer.
Look, if you had 800 retirements Monda would have moved up close to 800 numbers. He didn't! He moved up half that and he was the bottom pilot in May 2005.

So then, you are saying that 400 people junior to him retired? Is that the kind of coveted attrition you are bragging about- retiring on furlough?

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Explain then how Monda moved up only 400 numbers in five years if you said there were 800 retirements in two years? Your math doesn't add up.

If you look at the Mar bid award, he has 604 pilots junior to him holding active bid positions. Take into account the active bid positions are just under 200 less that they were in 2005, and walaa you are are at 800. Its pretty simple. His rise and the number of people below him pretty accurately match the shrinkage and attrition.

 

[Pi brat]

You couldn't be more clear. The East had 270 aircraft in May 2005, and even including the 15 E190's which are not protected by the Group 2, 202 aircraft minimum has 217 today. You can never explain that prior to the recalls, POTA and 95 hours a month and the phone ringing off the hook was the norm and according to any flight ops source the recalls would have started sooner but were held off because of the hostile DAL buyout bid. In 2005, there were 2782 active bid positions or pilots actively flying and because of under staffing there really there should have been around 3000 to stop the constant priority trip assignments. US Airways was retiring 250-300 at age 60 which continued right up to December 2007, which accounts for another 500-600. Since then, there has been around a 100 early retirements or resignations along with the chunk of 40 that retired early in the spring of last year with the early out money. Along with that, as the pilot group ages and nears 65, there have been an increasing net number of pilots leaving the bid to LTD, over 100 in the last 3 years.

So you analysis is correct, the East pilot active bid positions have shrunk by 200 hundred in the last 6 years but the attrition due to age 60, prior to Dec 2007, early retirement/resignation, and pilots leaving the bid to LTD is over 800, the vast majority senior to Monda. Its pretty easy math but it flies in the face of West perception and bolsters the argument of the East stance and why attrition, if you want to use career protection or expectation is exactly that and therein lays the resistance in wanting to accept it.

You are correct, I forgot about all that and I agree that returning to "normal staffing" is not growth. If we had been staffed properly in 2005 maybe that would have had an affect on the Nic.

 

[Pi brat]

Not wanting to throw your mud but the east has two pilots, both USAPA volunteers who were flying non-union work, one at Mesa and one at CAL. More importantly, your company has been around quite a while and you have never had a strike. Why is that? How did you make your contract improvements without a strike? My thoughts are you piggy backed others: AMR, NWA and UAL. And yes, AMR did go on strike in 95 before Clinton intervened. Point is, the reason you do not have any "scabs" is partly due to the fact you never even went on strike to begin with. ANd that makes one wonder again how you achieved "parity +1" without any assertive labor action? I have my answer and part of it has to do with the rock-em sock-em robots in the CLT union office- you guys are Springer quality for the most part and have no clue about unity and that's probably one factor why you've never struck. The other factor is you had weak airline management. Parker isn't anything like that and this is partly why we are five years post merger and not even close to a contract. Parker has you guys spinning in circles on bankruptcy rates and will keep you there for another three or four years (at least). No unity = no contract

Wrong again. Piedmont, PSA and Mohawk all went on strike. There are pilots still on our property that walked a picket line.

The Mesa pilot you speak of I agree with, but the CAL one says he is wrongly listed on one of the SCAB lists, and not listed on others. I wasn't there, but since those throwing stones have no credibility with me I will go with his version.

Also, when I was hired at PI was told that a Wien SCAB got hired, but when they found out he didn't make it through probation.

There are many, many pilots over here that paid the CO and EA strike assessments, not so many over there, right? How long did it take for AWA to join ALPA?

 

[767jetz]

Then with that spiteful logic, a reversion to LOA 84 pay rates with a Kasher decision would warrant the East to then sit back for years and not accept any contract as favorable. Thusly re setting the pressure point on the west.

Have you been on another planet, or do you just not read what your partners in crime here write? That is EXACTLY what you eastholes have been saying all along! To paraphrase and remind you, 'If we win the LOA93 grievance, then we will have separate ops forever. There will never be a vote on a contract. You won't see a contract until we are all gone and you inherit this place.' It's YOUR tactic, but funny how you don't like it when it backfires.

Nice try though. Typical east tactic... accuse others of doing the EXACT thing you have been doing all along. USAPA: the hypocrite's club in a fantasy world of double standards.

Although you wish to see USAPA implode,

I don't have to wish it. It is just a forgone conclusion. USAPA is your experiment. It's your mess to clean up. Don't expect sympathy when the implosion occurs.

I'm just THE messenger.

 

[Pi brat]

And you guys took took "parity+1" without so much of a hiccup...Then did the same with LOA 93. See the pattern?

Thanks for the added info, btw. I think you guys are incapable of going on strike.

This what I mean by your condescending posts. Took LOA 93 without so much as a hiccup? Where did you get that it? It was a major fight within the pilot group and I would list it as third behind the pension giveaway, and the Nic as a reason for ALPA being voted off the island and many guys are still seeking retribution for it.

Why would you say that? You weren't here to know and if someone was here that shared that with you they were out to lunch and you shouldn't use them for info.

 

[767jetz]

Point is, the reason you do not have any "scabs" is partly due to the fact you never even went on strike to begin with.

You make an excellent point. These guys sure do talk tough for a bunch who never actually stood up to management and helped the industry. They hide in fear, vote for every concession, ride the coattails of everyone else, then blame anyone they can for their lot in life. Reminds me of the few dozen pilots in CLT who "picketed" as they called it, standing around with their hands in their pockets looking completely pathetic.

 

[prechilill]

Wrong again. Piedmont, PSA and Mohawk all went on strike. There are pilots still on our property that walked a picket line.

The Mesa pilot you speak of I agree with, but the CAL one says he is wrongly listed on one of the SCAB lists, and not listed on others. I wasn't there, but since those throwing stones have no credibility with me I will go with his version.

Also, when I was hired at PI was told that a Wien SCAB got hired, but when they found out he didn't make it through probation.

There are many, many pilots over here that paid the CO and EA strike assessments, not so many over there, right? How long did it take for AWA to join ALPA?

Your pilot group has yet to go on strike. There are many pilots at AWA that walked lines at CO and EA, one of which your union attempted a RICO suit against. Your pilot group certainly doesn't measure up to anything unique in this industry- especially when compared to the AWA pilot group. Your friends are saying otherwise, I disagree.
When you climb your way out of your hole I might have a change of opinion, as of right now you guys are completely ineffective as a pilot group.

 

[prechilill]

This what I mean by your condescending posts. Took LOA 93 without so much as a hiccup? Where did you get that it? It was a major fight within the pilot group and I would list it as third behind the pension giveaway, and the Nic as a reason for ALPA being voted off the island and many guys are still seeking retribution for it.

Why would you say that? You weren't here to know and if someone was here that shared that with you they were out to lunch and you shouldn't use them for info.

So, you are saying your pilot group did this, not some clandestine ALPA operation in Herndon? YOu guys talk out of both sides of your mouths daily around here- just an observation. Sorry if my opinions irritate your thin skin.

 

[Pi brat]

There in lays the widely divergent contract expectations of the East and West pilots. The East pilots view LOA 93 as incredibly concessionary and as a "temporary" sacrifice and investment in their futures. If LOA 93 had been a mirror of your current agreement, it would have been viewed the same. That is the culture and history. The West unfortunately has the best they have ever had and so the Kirby proposal is just a continuation of that mindset. While the word scab is thrown about with little regard, the West pilot group was born out of a scab mentality and for decades was half or less their peers in pay when you include in benefits and retirement. Post strike Continental with no union was more desirable to go work for than America West and unless someone had ties or a desire to live in PHX or Vegas or simply couldn't get on somewhere else, it was simply used as a stepping stone to get a "real job". The high attrition created by that turn style employment allowed the Wien/Ansestt culture to perpetuate poor working conditions and those that stayed for the longer term were conditioned to low wages and poor conditions. You consider the Kirby proposal a deal that ought to be looked at but by any other standard than the post 9/11 ch 11 era, it is still pathetic and a continuation of the cultural history of the America West legacy.

The majority of the East pilot group, regardless of the seniority issue looks at something like that as very concessionary and a non-starter. How you guys bridge that gap, who knows but throwing around the scab word without knowing history is driving the divide wider.

Well said and let me add something about LOA 93. The company meant it to be the mirror image of AWA, with a little jetBlue thrown in. Only our inept MEC, lack of national oversight, pilot fatigue and constant pilot infighting made it worse. My good friend said it best "AWA was the template for LOA 93", yet now they love throwing it up.

 

[Pi brat]

So, you are saying your pilot group did this, not some clandestine ALPA operation in Herndon? YOu guys talk out of both sides of your mouths daily around here- just an observation. Sorry if my opinions irritate your thin skin.

They do, and I have a feeling everything about you would irritate me. I've often wondered if you were a pilot on my jumpseat from CLT-PHX several years back that was condescending and clueless.

 

[767jetz]

When Parity+1 was negotiated and ratified it was concessionary and was thought to bring about a 8-10% pay cut

Proving the point that the east talks tough but never stands up and fights. (Except among themselves in the union hallways.) Why accept an 8-10% pay cut? There was no bankruptcy on the horizon at the time. You could have taken it to a strike vote at least.

Your rich contract you speak of was due to weak management, not strength, or unity, or negotiating skills. That's for sure.

had the first review come before UAL's contract of 2000, the pilots would have taken a clipping

You're welcome!

 

[Black Swan]

I found a note in the mayonnaise jar on Funk & Wagnel's porch yesterday. They said it was for me to read. It was from Karnak the great prognosticator of the future....
The note explained all about LOA93, the DJ, and the contract. This is what I gleaned:
Here's my take on the LOA93 arb. First is a question: why is it taking soooo long? The choices are fairly simple. The issue is black/white - there really is no gray area to fashion a compromise position.
But, here's the reality: if the decision is favorable to the pilots, it will cost the company a lot of money. You can argue this point until you are blue in the face, but the fact remains that 'a lot of money' equals an unacceptable position to the company and it's investors. Also, the question of a combined contract for the pilots and f/a's has to be taken into consideration. A win for the pilots again makes the combined contract that much more difficult to achieve.
With the DJ, whatever it may be, imminent, it is my estimation that the company will make a good offer soon after the DJ has been rendered, with the caveat that the LOA93 arb be dropped. Perhaps a one-time signing bonus will be given as incentive?
So, USAPA's choice in this scenario will be to present a decent contract for membership ratification and drop the LOA93 arb or refuse both and wait longer for a decision that may well never be ruled on.
As all pilots in USAPA want/need a contract upgrade and the company wants/needs a combined contract, IMO the first option will prevail.
Of course, the USAPA membership must be given a good offer for it to pass.....
And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Cheers.

So you are saying if the company loses LOA 93 you say they are able to not pay it because it is unacceptable to them? If you did, you don't get that this is not an Internal Union Dispute. This is a contractual obligation they CANNOT get around without USAPA signing off. You are way off the mark on this.