US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Exactly. What USAPA's C & Rs forget about is any growth flying, a benefit the east has been enjoying tremendously since day one of the merger. Look at their seniority list, how much has it grown since May 2005? About 700 numbers!

Are you saying that since May 19 2005 the east has added 700 active pilots to it's list? How has it done that while shrinking to within a few hulls of the min fleet?

Show your math. How many active pilots on the east on May 19, 2005 vs Today. I asked nic4us, but never got an answer, just like you claim east pilots do.

 

[BoeingBoy]

How has it done that while shrinking to within a few hulls of the min fleet.

You know that's not true since the E190's don't count toward the minimum fleet. So if East were at min fleet it would actually be 15 planes over min fleet.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

You know that's not true since the E190's don't count toward the minimum fleet. So if East were at min fleet it would actually be 15 planes over min fleet.

Jim

If a frog had wings.............as you said, they don't count and we didn't have any E190s on May 19th 2005. You have the files? I don't have them here, but I'm pretty sure we had more than 2600 active pilots with none at 190 rates, right? 737 and bigger active east pilots on May 19th 2005.

 

[Reed Richards]

What you want is to staple the majority of the West to "your" list - I'm not surprised you think it's "fair".

And I don't think you want to get into the game of guilt by association with the skeletons in the East's closet. After all, I could easily say you refused to correct the injustice done to the Empire and Shuttle pilots, shoot holes in airplanes, run off the runway and into the water at LGA, don't know how to handle windshear, break the nose gear of airplanes, run into other airplanes, are a scab, etc.

Jim

You are a real piece of work. The more we see, the more you stink.

USAPA could not have promised to reorder an already ratified list (the one you watched happen without a peep) and still won the election. It was a promise that could not legally be kept. You know that.

If you had given the Empire pilots DOH with fences lasting 20 years, they still would have skin in the game on this current merger..not to mention future mergers. So don't give us this bull about stapling.

The West Merger Committee could have agreed to DOH with 10 year fences protecting all. They went for broke and actually got better, but only in the form of an obscene lottery ticket they cannot ever cash.

Since you now have joined the West Borg in your recap of accidents, let us all be thankful your sorry old bag of bones is grounded,. Shame on you Sir. Really.

RR

 

[BoeingBoy]

as you said, they don't count and we didn't have any E190s on May 19th 2005.

Progress I guess - MDA had the E170's but if you don't count them that means admitting that they weren't active mainline...

As for the files, you asked at a bad time. I'm in the middle of putting all my old stuff on a new computer due to a hard drive failure and don't have the program loaded that works with the old bid files.

Jim

Oh, the East does have more pilots than at the snapshot and the low was hit in early 2006 when the last of the airplanes that were returned to the leasor under the agreement reached with GECAS in Jan 2005. All you need to look at is that all furloughees that wanted to come back did (including the CEL pilots at MDA) and there was additional pilots hired. So the E190's, the 7 new A332's, and 3 757's had to be staffed after East reached the low point.

Oh #2, it hit me that the bid packet files are pdf so I can use those as a rough guide (the headcount is line jobs, not active pilots). Looks like about 300 more line flying jobs than the low point. I don't know how much change there has been in "supervisory" (training dept mainly) jobs.

 

[Pi brat]

Progress I guess - MDA had the E170's but if you don't count them that means admitting that they weren't active mainline...

As for the files, you asked at a bad time. I'm in the middle of putting all my old stuff on a new computer due to a hard drive failure and don't have the program loaded that works with the old bid files.

Jim

Oh, the East does have more pilots than at the snapshot and the low was hit in early 2006 when the last of the airplanes that were returned to the leasor under the agreement reached with GECAS in Jan 2005. All you need to look at is that all furloughees that wanted to come back did (including the CEL pilots at MDA) and there was additional pilots hired.

Well, nobody asked me, but okay, include the 170s and the MDA guys to the May 19 2005 numbers and lets compare them to today"s active numbers including the 190. I don't have them on this computer either, but that's ok because I'm sure prechill has the exact ones, she wouldn't pull that 700 out of here ##@@, would she? West pilots don't tht except when vastly overstating how profitable AWA was.

What's your guess on May 19 2005? I'm think it was around 2900 737 and greater and a couple hundred MDA, but that was a while ago.

 

[Pi brat]

Oh, the East does have more pilots than at the snapshot and the low was hit in early 2006 when the last of the airplanes that were returned to the leasor under the agreement reached with GECAS in Jan 2005. All you need to look at is that all furloughees that wanted to come back did (including the CEL pilots at MDA) and there was additional pilots hired. So the E190's, the 7 new A332's, and 3 757's had to be staffed after East reached the low point.

I don't think so, but I will admit I might be wrong. You say we have more than the snapshot, and preill says we added 700, so with around 2600 active now that would have made 1900 active then? I don't think so...............anyone have the numbers handy?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I added a second ps to my other post which I'm sure you didn't see. Also remember that the sale of the 170's had been agreed to on the PID but no airplanes had transferred, meaning that MDA was operating 25 E170's minus presumably a spare or two.

I doubt that there's 700 more pilots on the East list now than the low point, but 300-400 is probably in the ballpark when you add training dept people and other "supervisory" plus those out on medical/LOA/military to the low point.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

I added a second ps to my other post which I'm sure you didn't see. Also remember that the sale of the 170's had been agreed to on the PID but no airplanes had transferred, meaning that MDA was operating 25 E170's minus presumably a spare or two.

I doubt that there's 700 more pilots on the East list now than the low point, but 300-400 is probably in the ballpark when you add training dept people and other "supervisory" plus those out on medical/LOA/military to the low point.

Jim

No, no, no......we have to look at MAY 19, 2005 because that was the last day that the two companies were completely separate and the west doesn't want to look at what would have happen in the future(let me correct that, that want to say the certainly would have taken delivery of all those airplanes and kept upgrading guys in 7 years or less, but don't want to look at east attrition). Plus, I'm talking total active pilots that are listed in positions, like on the bid announcement for May where it shows 2605. 2900 sticks in my mind, I hope I have the bid announcement for that time period.

I'm confident prespill will have them, and she said"Look at their seniority list, how much has it grown since May 2005? About 700 numbers!"

 

[BoeingBoy]

Plus, I'm talking total active pilots that are listed in positions, like on the bid announcement for May where it shows 2605. 2900 sticks in my mind, I hope I have the bid announcement for that time period.

The headcount in the bid packet only counts line flying pilots, not the total on the seniority list. You have to add in all the non-line pilots to get the total number. Remember, the change in retirement age means that people are staying out on medical 5 years longer than they would have if the age hadn't changed.

It's the non-line flying pilots that I don't have numbers for, or at least can't read the files right now. Nic lists 6520 pilots on his list which is the PID date updated to 1/1/07 (removed those that retired in the intervening year+). After the update West had 1800+ pilots and East had 3005. Again, those include all pilots on the seniority list, not active line pilots. IIRC, East had around 300 out on medical about th 1/1/2007 (that was shortly after I retired) and that number would have grown, especially after the retirement age changed.

I can understand your argument about fleet changes that were agreed to before the PID but not accomplished until after the PID. However, the East has no problem justifying why the 190's, 332's, and 757's acquired after the PID are theirs. May 19, 2005 wasn't the last day the two airlines were separate, BTW. It is the date that it was pretty certain that there would be a merger, thus the date the merger policy was applied. The last day there were two completely separate was Sept 20-something 2005.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

USAPA could not have promised to reorder an already ratified list (the one you watched happen without a peep) and still won the election. It was a promise that could not legally be kept. You know that.

Oh, I thought seniority was like crew meals and could be renegotiated at any time. That's what USAPA and it's supporters argued.

Since you now have joined the West Borg in your recap of accidents, let us all be thankful your sorry old bag of bones is grounded,. Shame on you Sir. Really.

First, I was not joining the West but illustrating what your, Nos the Liar's, and crazy'd guilt by association leads to if all of you want to play that game. But it's obviously ok for you, Nos the Liar, crazy, etc to play the guilt by association game but not anyone else - standard USAPA double standard. Starting with defining "fair" as what's best for the East...including those fences USAPA is so fond of since they offer very little protection.

You and your pals are the real scum, wanting pilots who were furloughed to jump ahead of West captains that have the seniority to hold captain and have had the seniority for years. If anyone wanted to do to you what you want to do to the West pilots you'd be squealing like a stuck pig.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

*******************
what the F*** are you talking about? You need to go take a pill or something.

I just posted the retirements.. East and West over the next few years starting in 2012.

in the next 10 years 2483 pilots are leaving on the EAST.
You young guys own this place in 10 years...
DOH with CR until then..

What you posted was incorrect information. I am just calling you out on your mistake. Be a man and admit that you got it wrong.

Do you not know how to read a chart? From your own information
starting 2011 to 2021, 10 tears is 1996 not 2483. Do you own a calculator?

8+144+201+179+227+237+259+255+238+248= Ask someone smarter than you.

You said east attrition. you keep quoting east +west attrition. I know you want to steal what we have but you don't get it.

You want the west to wait 10 years to get what we should have had 5 years ago. No thanks. The longest wait you guys were going to have under Nicolau was 2 years. But no you want it now. No thanks I will take what the neutral arbitrator decided.

 

[AWA320]

You are a real piece of work. The more we see, the more you stink.

USAPA could not have promised to reorder an already ratified list (the one you watched happen without a peep) and still won the election. It was a promise that could not legally be kept. You know that.

If you had given the Empire pilots DOH with fences lasting 20 years, they still would have skin in the game on this current merger..not to mention future mergers. So don't give us this bull about stapling.

The West Merger Committee could have agreed to DOH with 10 year fences protecting all. They went for broke and actually got better, but only in the form of an obscene lottery ticket they cannot ever cash.

Since you now have joined the West Borg in your recap of accidents, let us all be thankful your sorry old bag of bones is grounded,. Shame on you Sir. Really.

RR

Really?? One would have expected more from a highly educated legacy aviator such as yourself. I mean you are the top of the top, the best of everything, pay, contract, schedules a real legacy top dog Naaa that was all a lie as you nothing more than a UBS!!! and it shows with each and every post. Live out whats left of your sorry career fenced in that LOA93 suit.

AWA320 says NO to UBS's

 

[cleardirect]

We interrupt the ongoing arguements for a news flash: Apparently the union office will be seeing the moving vans as the EVP has snowed the vacuous BPR (minus my CLT guys) has fallen for a pack of bs as the evp is in the process of scuring a mold-filled dive in a high crime area in Charlotte. This is, of course, fully supported by our west reps as it puts the President in a tenuous position as the association supposedly could be held responsible in a legal action.
Might want to get on your reps about this as the sellout is planned for as soon as Tuesday.

Anybody else hear about this?

Wow! Thanks for giving our 3 west reps so much credit. So our little old 3 reps against your 8 reps and we have something to do with the decision?

Unless this office is going to be in PHX who cares. CLT is 2000 miles away from where the decisions of the airline are made.

Gee usapa involved in another law suit imagine that. You guys seem to collect them like baseball cards. Who are you east pilots trying to screw out of what this time?

 

[nic4us]

....... how should USAPA handle things with seniority?

Did you really mean to ask that?

If they don't want to get sued and lose, they should use the Nic.