US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

Are you saying that since May 19 2005 the east has added 700 active pilots to it's list? How has it done that while shrinking to within a few hulls of the min fleet?

Show your math. How many active pilots on the east on May 19, 2005 vs Today. I asked nic4us, but never got an answer, just like you claim east pilots do.

You asked me on what date jobs were stolen, not how many active on each list. I gave an answere, but tried to point out that the exact date is a moving target.

I do not have the resources or the time to look up that info. I hope somebody else can come up with an accurate number. Here is what I do know.

Monda's PID east number was 2942. Odell's West number was 1884.

I am guessing prechill is getting 700 as the number who are employed on the east list below Monda, anybody have that number?

What I do know is that the West 1-1-11 seniority list Odell is 1710 and I believe recalls have reached 1650.

So to answere your original question, I would say jobs were stolen on the date Coello kept his job and Odell got a pink slip, while usapa abetted pilots junior to him to transfer back east and remain employed.

 

[nic4us]

CLT is 2000 miles away from where the decisions of the airline are made.

Clear, don't upset Cleary's and the usapian's sensibilities.

Try to remember that the decisions of the airline are made in the usapa presidents office, as mandated by their C&BL that trump federal law. The Tempe HQ is just a figment of Parker's imagination, as AWA never really aquired AAA, and that USAirways is still the powerhouse legacy carrier that flies from Buffalo to Puxatawney, run by under the radar powerbrokers in an attempt to burn lots of jet fuel.

 

[AvgJoe]

Oh, I thought seniority was like crew meals and could be renegotiated at any time. That's what USAPA and it's supporters argued.



First, I was not joining the West but illustrating what your, Nos the Liar's, and crazy'd guilt by association leads to if all of you want to play that game. But it's obviously ok for you, Nos the Liar, crazy, etc to play the guilt by association game but not anyone else - standard USAPA double standard. Starting with defining "fair" as what's best for the East...including those fences USAPA is so fond of since they offer very little protection.

You and your pals are the real scum, wanting pilots who were furloughed to jump ahead of West captains that have the seniority to hold captain and have had the seniority for years. If anyone wanted to do to you what you want to do to the West pilots you'd be squealing like a stuck pig.

Jim

Relative seniority takes a logical and experience based career progression, and turns it into a lottery game.  I'm sorry, but a pilot with five digits of flight time is worth more than one with four. The furloughees (sp?) "paid their dues" in this industry long before the Junior AWA pilots got hired. DOH with C&R is the only fair way to go. Pilots should not have their careers ruined by management decisions.  It's a shame we have never managed to build a nationwide seniority list, that would have precluded this B.S.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The furloughees (sp?) "paid their dues" in this industry long before the Junior AWA pilots got hired.

And what did "paying their dues" get them? Furloughed. So now you want is to take from the West to make up for what the furloughees lost, and call it fair.

There'll never be a national seniority because of what USAPA is trying to do. Why would pilots at any airline that hasn't been through the wringer and checked out in 10 years want to see some 20+ year FO's from another carrier that had problems coming in above them.

Jim

 

[Reed Richards]

And I don't think you want to get into the game of guilt by association with the skeletons in the East's closet. After all, I could easily say you refused to correct the injustice done to the Empire and Shuttle pilots, shoot holes in airplanes, run off the runway and into the water at LGA, don't know how to handle windshear, break the nose gear of airplanes, run into other airplanes, are a scab, etc.

Jim

I am not going to let the above posting die. You will see it with your name attached every time I log on to the site, from now on.

"I could easily say" is a cop out. You obviously wanted to send a message out to your ex-fellow pilots. We got the shout out loud and clear.

Disgusting, but par for the course from you and AWA320.

Keep lecturing Jim, and I will keep this post alive.

RR

 

[KTM300]

And what did "paying their dues" get them? Furloughed. So now you want is to take from the West to make up for what the furloughees lost, and call it fair.

There'll never be a national seniority because of what USAPA is trying to do. Why would pilots at any airline that hasn't been through the wringer and checked out in 10 years want to see some 20+ year FO's from another carrier that had problems coming in above them.

Jim

You my friend, really are incredible. Forget the fact that you don't have a dog in this fight and that maybe your only reason for involving yourself is because you have a relative or family member that got hired at AWE.

We will never have a national seniority list, not because of USAPA, but because of ALPA! You know it and I know it. It was ALPA that stopped representing the profession and professional pilots many years ago.
Many have called you on the Piedmont/Empire merger. You righteously make claims about where you stood back then but not one Piedmont guy had the balls to say it was wrong then, including you! You along with countless pilots not even on the seniority list at Piedmont unjustly ended up senior to the Empire guys. You claim it was wrong but their is not one shred of evidence that proves you tried to do anything about it. ALPA is directly responsible for that mess as they are with this one.
You now are trying to justify the nic not because it is fair, not because it is right, only because it doesn't affect you! If you were still on the seniority list, you'd be singing a different tune. I'd bet my career on that.
You and some of the other vocal westies on here completely discount the C&Rs. Have you read them? It seems pretty easy to see that not one former AWE pilot is adversely harmed or looses an opportunity to either keep his left seat or upgrade to one with all the protections provided. So what is it that you, Jim, want? What are you doing here? I'm not saying you shouldn't be here or have an opinion, but what is your motive? Just curious!

 

[AvgJoe]

And what did "paying their dues" get them? Furloughed. So now you want is to take from the West to make up for what the furloughees lost, and call it fair.

There'll never be a national seniority because of what USAPA is trying to do. Why would pilots at any airline that hasn't been through the wringer and checked out in 10 years want to see some 20+ year FO's from another carrier that had problems coming in above them.

Jim

Your reply smacks of elitism. You choose to look down your nose at furloughees and airlines that have "been through the ringer", I see only other pilots. Stay in this business long enough and you will get your turn in the barrel. I repeat, it it not fair to punish pilots for management mistakes. As for stealing from the West, you see it as their right to take the east attrition and upgrades out of DOH order, I see that as stealing. C&R's will protect your precious junior captains. No bump, no flush. 

 

[Ames]

Relative seniority takes a logical and experience based career progression, and turns it into a lottery game.  I'm sorry, but a pilot with five digits of flight time is worth more than one with four. The furloughees (sp?) "paid their dues" in this industry long before the Junior AWA pilots got hired. DOH with C&R is the only fair way to go. Pilots should not have their careers ruined by management decisions.  It's a shame we have never managed to build a nationwide seniority list, that would have precluded this B.S.

What a hypocritical statement. First of all, I'll take a F4, F16, F15, or any BE1900 pilot's four digit flight time over an A320 pilot's 25000 hours any time. That being said I do have "five digits of flight time" and your logic takes my captain seat and gives it to a formerly furloughed US Airways pilot. Why should my career be ruined by YOUR management's bad decisions? I chose AWA over Airways because of the potential AWA had and the dismal state of YOUR airline. Why should I be punished for YOUR decisions to remain on a sinking ship?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

What a hypocritical statement. First of all, I'll take a F4, F16, F15, or any BE1900 pilot's four digit flight time over an A320 pilot's 25000 hours any time. That being said I do have "five digits of flight time" and your logic takes my captain seat and gives it to a formerly furloughed US Airways pilot. Why should my career be ruined by YOUR management's bad decisions? I chose AWA over Airways because of the potential AWA had and the dismal state of YOUR airline. Why should I be punished for YOUR decisions to remain on a sinking ship?

What an uneducated statement.
No it doesn't. The C&Rs protect you from that. If you don't like the C&Rs, then you should have participated in writing them. INstead, the west refused to be a participant.

 

[cleardirect]

You my friend, really are incredible. Forget the fact that you don't have a dog in this fight and that maybe your only reason for involving yourself is because you have a relative or family member that got hired at AWE.

We will never have a national seniority list, not because of USAPA, but because of ALPA! You know it and I know it. It was ALPA that stopped representing the profession and professional pilots many years ago.
Many have called you on the Piedmont/Empire merger. You righteously make claims about where you stood back then but not one Piedmont guy had the balls to say it was wrong then, including you! You along with countless pilots not even on the seniority list at Piedmont unjustly ended up senior to the Empire guys. You claim it was wrong but their is not one shred of evidence that proves you tried to do anything about it. ALPA is directly responsible for that mess as they are with this one.
You now are trying to justify the nic not because it is fair, not because it is right, only because it doesn't affect you! If you were still on the seniority list, you'd be singing a different tune. I'd bet my career on that.
You and some of the other vocal westies on here completely discount the C&Rs. Have you read them? It seems pretty easy to see that not one former AWE pilot is adversely harmed or looses an opportunity to either keep his left seat or upgrade to one with all the protections provided. So what is it that you, Jim, want? What are you doing here? I'm not saying you shouldn't be here or have an opinion, but what is your motive? Just curious!

What part of this don't you people get? The west has read the C&R, we understand them. They stink. They do not protect the west. You guys saying they do does not make it so.

Have you read the Nicolau award? It protects the east. See how this works?

 

[cleardirect]

What an uneducated statement.
No it doesn't. The C&Rs protect you from that. If you don't like the C&Rs, then you should have participated in writing them. INstead, the west refused to be a participant.

And I guess you guys should have participated in the arbitration, instead of refusing.

After he told you to change your position would have been the time.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

And I guess you guys should have participated in the arbitration, instead of refusing.

After he told you to change your position would have been the time.

We DID participate. We got it thrown out.

Next stupid point?

 

[cleardirect]

We DID participate. We got it thrown out.

Next stupid point?

Pay attention.

During arbitration. Participate during arbitration.

You did not get it thrown out. But if that were true. It would be AFTER. Therefore you did not participate.

Why is this so hard you you guys to understand?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Pay attention.

During arbitration. Participate during arbitration.

You did not get it thrown out. But if that were true. It would be AFTER. Therefore you did not participate.

Why is this so hard you you guys to understand?

I can look up the number for Herndon if you want to ask the OLD CBA about that. Let me know if you don't have the number.

Doesn't matter anymore. NO ALPA, no Nic.

 

[cleardirect]

I can look up the number for Herndon if you want to ask the OLD CBA about that. Let me know if you don't have the number.

Doesn't matter anymore. NO ALPA, no Nic.

No number required. I have the transcripts. Where DURING the arbitration Nicolau told you to change your position. East pilots FAILED to participate.

So we have no need to participate in any C&R's because DOH is never going to happen.