US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

How is a WEST CAPT forced out of PHX?, if he is senior enough to be a CAPT he can surely hold a job in PHX! MM! notice it has a " ?"

If the company decides to shift flying. Notice I said shift not get rid of. You guys know how that works right. Flying moves from one base to the other.

Those same number of hours start in PHL or CLT instead of PHX. That west captain has to follow that flying. He now has furloughed east pilots senior to him. The C&R do nothing. He is stapled.

No thanks!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

If the company decides to shift flying. Notice I said shift not get rid of.

Those same number of hours start in PHL or CLT instead of PHX. That west captain has to follow that flying. He now has furloughed east pilots senior to him. The C&R do nothing. He is stapled.

No thanks!

I give how is the flying shifted and why? notice the " ? " And what EAST furloughed pilot? You have a tendancy to overstate your position!

 

[prechilill]

If the company decides to shift flying. Notice I said shift not get rid of. You guys know how that works right. Flying moves from one base to the other.

Those same number of hours start in PHL or CLT instead of PHX. That west captain has to follow that flying. He now has furloughed east pilots senior to him. The C&R do nothing. He is stapled.

No thanks!

Exactly. What USAPA's C & Rs forget about is any growth flying, a benefit the east has been enjoying tremendously since day one of the merger. Look at their seniority list, how much has it grown since May 2005? About 700 numbers!

Give us C & Rs which keeps all flying in PHX at least static, plus add in any additional flying and that is reasonable to everyone. Currently, the C&R protections are so poor that the easties refuse to even consider using them with Nicolau! Talk about hypocrites...
The east's motifs are so transparent.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I already addressed the red herring issue of you being a Rep. But you are correct Jim..there is no proof about any the above.

Yes you did and I thank you for doing that. If dummy Nos would just do the same but he won't.

The sad fact is you did nothing. Nothing at all. You were not responsible in any other way than standing on the opposite corner as the mugging took place, with just a little more skip in your stride as you left the scene, knowing darn well you would personally gain from the event.

But now you make the same accusation as Nos the Liar. Back your words up, or otherwise you're as bad as Nos the Liar.

The pilots that voted in this union did just the opposite. They may not succeed. But they did not sit idly by and spend over 20 years sitting on their hands and saying "who..me????" Much less going on a public forum like you have and berating others for doing what you would not.

You forget USAPA's refusal to put the Empire people in their DOH place. You let the union off the hook while blaming an individual? I think your integrity badge is tarnishing.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

I give how is the flying shifted and why? notice the " ? " And what EAST furloughed pilot? You have a tendancy to overstate your position!

You say you have been around for 25 years. You should be able to figure this out on your own. You don't really need some "rookie" "furloughed" west pilot explaining this to you do you? Figure it out yourself.

Dean Colello and anyone junior to him was/is a furloughed pilot at the PID. That is where we start. Colello would go from being furloughed to being senior to about 500 of our captains. That is a staple. No other way to describe it.

Not an overstatement. Facts! Try using them sometime.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Exactly. What USAPA's C & Rs forget about is any growth flying, a benefit the east has been enjoying tremendously since day one of the merger. Look at their seniority list, how much has it grown since May 2005? About 700 numbers!

Give us C & Rs which keeps all flying in PHX at least static, plus add in any additional flying and that is reasonable to everyone. Currently, the C&R protections are so poor that the easties refuse to even consider using them with Nicolau! Talk about hypocrites...
The east's motifs are so transparent.

Growth flying? You might ask those angry f/os how big USAIRWAYS was prior 911, were just making up for the reduction in flying, better yet ask JIM! MM! And why should an EAST pilot give up his recaptured flying to someone that wasn't even hired?

 

[prechilill]

So how about it Nos- Nicolau with USAPAs C&Rs- what say you. Yes or no answer is all that is needed.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Growth flying? You might ask those angry f/os how big USAIRWAYS was prior 911, were just making up for the reduction in flying, better yet ask JIM!

So you're admitting that you want the West to pay for the bad times East had prior to the merger?

Let me make it simple so you'll be able to follow along, MM. Say the #1 West 757 captain retires. I'll even give you the thought that the retirement doesn't count as a voluntary move under USAPA's C&R's so the vacancy created by retirement is preserved for a West Pilot although USAPA C&R's don't say that. Now, a West 737 captain gets that 757 vacancy - he voluntarily left his protected position. An East pilot, who was furloughed at the time of the merger, can bid that PHX 737 captain vacancy. Not only that, but once in PHX that previously furloughed East pilot exercises his DOH seniority to go in front of most of the West pilots. And that's how an East pilot who was furloughed at the time of the merger ends up as a PHX captain senior to the vast majority of West pilots.

That is why USAPA's C&R's trap the West pilots in PHX while they're pushed down. It's why nearly all the upgrades in PHX will go to East pilots. What the C&R's accomplish is to put a 1-way door at the Mississippi - East pilots can go through it and improve their position but West pilots can only lose if they go through it.

Jim

 

[crazystnic]

If a west captain is forced out of PHX. How do the C&R keep that furloughed east pilot from being senior to the west capt.?

Quick answer it doesn't. So you guys do want to staple west pilots.

*******************
wrong junior.. doesn't matter if they are forced out.. those are protected captain positions.

CR

Effective on the Commencement Date, the combined number of Captain positions that existed in LAS and PHX as of 1 June 2008 and the combined number of First Officer positions that existed in LAS and PHX as of 1 June 2008 shall be initially allocated to pilots on the West seniority list as protected Captain positions and protected First Officer positions. Protected positions shall not be available for integrated seniority bidding and shall only be available to West pilots for bidding during the term of these conditions.

 

[767jetz]

It happened. I did not say you wanted it, I stated "you were part of a group that stapled Empire pilots to the bottom of your list." You may not have wanted this to happen, but showed no courage to stop it.

You love this "guilt by association" theme, so that means you are OK with it being used on you as well, right?

You are part of a union who has a scab on the BPR/NAC (whatever). You are also part of a group whose whole existence is for the purpose of avoiding your legal obligations and advancing your personal gain at the expense of others.

That would make you a scab and a scofflaw by association by your own standards. As it does all the rest of your east cohorts. (Again, by your own standards.) I am quite content judging each and every person individually by their own actions, and not by their association. You are obviously not. (unless that standard is applied to your side of the fence only.)

Interestingly enough, rather than defend your position with facts, you rather stand by and say "what I'm doing is OK because you (BoeingBoy, Jetz, ALPA, whoever...) did such and such eons ago. Pure, unadulterated, blind anarchism. Whatever you believe BB or anyone else did in the past, by association or otherwise, does not make you any less of a s**mbag.

 

[crazystnic]

If the company decides to shift flying. Notice I said shift not get rid of. You guys know how that works right. Flying moves from one base to the other.

Those same number of hours start in PHL or CLT instead of PHX. That west captain has to follow that flying. He now has furloughed east pilots senior to him. The C&R do nothing. He is stapled.

No thanks!

******************************
wrong wrong wrong... maybe jim should reply you are a liar?

The mechanics of the process are as follows:
A snapshot of the number of positions available in each applicable aircraft position will be recorded. For this example, we will say there are an equal number of AB320 captain positions West and East, 100 each. Now we will assume that 20 AB320 positions are eliminated in PHX. There are now 180 total positions available, down from the original 200. In order to maintain the original ratio of 1 to 1, system-wide there will be 90 positions allocated for East pilots and 90 positions will be allocated for West pilots. The overall result is that there will be a loss of 20 actual bid positions in PHX, the loss of which will be shared with the East pilot group. This means that 10 West pilots will lose their seat and 10 West AB320 captains will be permitted to displace to the East operation, displacing 10 East AB320 captains, and thus maintaining the original ratio. Displaced pilots will be placed within any base bid category in system-wide seniority order. Displacement captain positions will be filled by a seniority bid from within the existing applicable aircraft type captain bid category. Keep in mind that this procedure is bi-directional; East pilots may displace West if East flying is reduced. West captains displaced to the East will retain protected position rights in PHX and LAS.

 

[cleardirect]

*******************
wrong junior.. doesn't matter if they are forced out.. those are protected captain positions.

CR

Effective on the Commencement Date, the combined number of Captain positions that existed in LAS and PHX as of 1 June 2008 and the combined number of First Officer positions that existed in LAS and PHX as of 1 June 2008 shall be initially allocated to pilots on the West seniority list as protected Captain positions and protected First Officer positions. Protected positions shall not be available for integrated seniority bidding and shall only be available to West pilots for bidding during the term of these conditions.

If a west captain is forced out of PHX. How do the C&R keep that furloughed east pilot from being senior to the west capt.?

Quick answer it doesn't. So you guys do want to staple west pilots.

If a west captain is forced into PHL,CLTor DCA protected? What C&R protect the west captain in the other bases if he is forced out? If the company shifts flying?

NONE!

 

[cleardirect]

******************************
wrong wrong wrong... maybe jim should reply you are a liar?

The mechanics of the process are as follows:
A snapshot of the number of positions available in each applicable aircraft position will be recorded. For this example, we will say there are an equal number of AB320 captain positions West and East, 100 each. Now we will assume that 20 AB320 positions are eliminated in PHX. There are now 180 total positions available, down from the original 200. In order to maintain the original ratio of 1 to 1, system-wide there will be 90 positions allocated for East pilots and 90 positions will be allocated for West pilots. The overall result is that there will be a loss of 20 actual bid positions in PHX, the loss of which will be shared with the East pilot group. This means that 10 West pilots will lose their seat and 10 West AB320 captains will be permitted to displace to the East operation, displacing 10 East AB320 captains, and thus maintaining the original ratio. Displaced pilots will be placed within any base bid category in system-wide seniority order. Displacement captain positions will be filled by a seniority bid from within the existing applicable aircraft type captain bid category. Keep in mind that this procedure is bi-directional; East pilots may displace West if East flying is reduced. West captains displaced to the East will retain protected position rights in PHX and LAS.

If the company decides to shift flying. Notice I said shift not get rid of. You guys know how that works right. Flying moves from one base to the other.

Those same number of hours start in PHL or CLT instead of PHX. That west captain has to follow that flying. He now has furloughed east pilots senior to him. The C&R do nothing. He is stapled.

No thanks!

READ IT CAREFULLY!!!!

I said shift.

The company decides to SHIFT flying. Reduce 10 AB Capt spots in PHX and increase 10 AB capt spots in PHL. What protection does the west captain now have?

Answer NONE!!! He will have to bid DOH. That puts furloughed pilots above 500 of our captains. Stapled west pilots with no protection.

Stick your C&R's

 

[BoeingBoy]

Displaced pilots will be placed within any base bid category in system-wide seniority order. Displacement captain positions will be filled by a seniority bid from within the existing applicable aircraft type captain bid category. Keep in mind that this procedure is bi-directional; East pilots may displace West if East flying is reduced. West captains displaced to the East will retain protected position rights in PHX and LAS.

And the West captains become the bottom of the barrel on the East side because of DOH, while East Captains rise to the top in PHX. And that's only for displacement - it doesn't address retirements and West pilots voluntarily changing jobs, which creates openings for very junior East pilots to bid PHX captain jobs, pushing everyone below them down via DOH.

All the USAPA C&R's do is slow the flow of East pilots to PHX while ultimately all the West pilots have is wherever they fall on the DOH list.

Jim

 

[prechilill]

******************************
wrong wrong wrong... maybe jim should reply you are a liar?

The mechanics of the process are as follows:
A snapshot of the number of positions available in each applicable aircraft position will be recorded. For this example, we will say there are an equal number of AB320 captain positions West and East, 100 each. Now we will assume that 20 AB320 positions are eliminated in PHX. There are now 180 total positions available, down from the original 200. In order to maintain the original ratio of 1 to 1, system-wide there will be 90 positions allocated for East pilots and 90 positions will be allocated for West pilots. The overall result is that there will be a loss of 20 actual bid positions in PHX, the loss of which will be shared with the East pilot group. This means that 10 West pilots will lose their seat and 10 West AB320 captains will be permitted to displace to the East operation, displacing 10 East AB320 captains, and thus maintaining the original ratio. Displaced pilots will be placed within any base bid category in system-wide seniority order. Displacement captain positions will be filled by a seniority bid from within the existing applicable aircraft type captain bid category. Keep in mind that this procedure is bi-directional; East pilots may displace West if East flying is reduced. West captains displaced to the East will retain protected position rights in PHX and LAS.

So how 'bout it crazy- Nicolau with USAPAs C&Rs- what say you??