US Pilots Labor Discussion-Aug 5 to 12-KEEP ON TOPIC

[oscarjazz]

cactusboy53,

Now who is myopic? Unless you've lived in a cave since 2002 when I joined US Aviation then you'd know I'm a customer...............

.....and yet you claim to have inside knowledge of ALPA and their politics and policies.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

A point well taken and one I'd not considered beyond the fact that from BK 1 and 2 until this very day I smelled a rat in ALPA. Seems my "gut" proved correct. Even the West doesn't seem heart broken that ALPA is gone.

I saw ALPA like behavior in large labor unions in the mid '80's at Mack Trucks. Heavy Truck manufacturing was in much the same position that the airlines find themselves today in that you had around 120,000 trucks worth of capacity chasing about 85,000 trucks worth of business split nearly equally across 7 manufacturers. Mack had an old inefficient plant called 5C in Allentown that was to be closed and the jobs shipped to Winnsboro, SC and non union. So the local UAW chapter negotiates a 6 year concessionary contract that would have allowed to remain in Allentown and 5C would be modernized. Fast forward and Bill Cassstevens, from the international UAW leadership squashes the deal and 1,800 UAW members LOSE their jobs as Mack went to SC. Now you may ask WHY? well it turns out that is a few short months contract talks were set to begin for 5,000 John Deere workers in Moline, IL

ALPA in my opinion would throw US & HP pilot under a bus in a heartest to preserve the status quo in their little cushy world. I actually felt bad for Capt. Prater trying to defend what amounted to an indefensable position.

You bet ALPA would throw anybody under a bus if it suited their purpose. I don't feel bad for Prater. I think he is the perfect example of the Peter Principle and has to defend the indefensible on that score alone. The pilots at United are watching this drama with USAPA vs the West very closely and if USAPA prevails, you can count on many hundreds of new members joining USAPA. After all, USAPA is an acronym for US Airline Pilots Assn. That takes in a lot of territory..........er....pilots.

 

[Crzipilot]

Second, how do you east folks want to split up the 35 million? Seems West members get to vote, and are very interested in the method that would upset the most ardent USAPA supporters. I think most West votes are going choice B.

Uhmm..just curious. Exactly how many west pilots are actually allowed to vote?

 

[CapnCockroach]

Both parties agreed to abide by the arbitrators ruling. For reasons known only to the founding members of USAPA they decided to wiggle out of the agreement.

Finally!! Some humor.

 

[Barrister]

Prechilli,

I never said I wasn't myopic. If I was hired on October 7th, 1972, the number of days, weeks, months and years I'm employed constitutes my Seniority. That is the basic definition of Seniority. Or as you prefer the myopic version.

If I worl for a company 35 years and you work 34 then you're below me.

What is being asked for is a "Bid List" that reorders the list of pilots based on specific pre established criteria one of which is DOH Seniority.

So then where is the common ground to unite both groups to address what I feel is the real enemy and that is the current pay scale abortion foisted upon all of you by Doug Parker and his merry band of (Insert Expletive here)

What I have gleaned from this never ending sewage pit of a thread is that not even the most militant US East pilot believes that the West should be stapled to the bottom of the US East Seniority list. That's a shred of commonality to build upon. Another area of semi agreement is that "Fences" around certain bases to make a list that is based upon DOH seniority yet protects those on the West who have worked at HP since it's inception, yet would be far down on a DOH integrated list.

So I do seem some common ground and thus a basis for settlement except for one thing. Both sides have become so entrenched and married to their positions that they're unwilling to lose face in order to foster an agreement.

So the challenge is to find a way for the West and the East pilots come to a meeting of the minds that allows the leadership to save face and for the Pilot group to gain a much deserved raise.

I get flaming pizzed when I see bright people, many of whom have safely flown me all over these United States getting the screw job they're getting. I'm angrier still that much of the wounds to their wallets are self inflicted.

If you could outlaw Egos the world might be a better place. At least US would be a better place.

Piney you seem to get the basic issues. One point of contention is that the merger policy provides for no windfals to either group and to preserve pre-merger career expectations....which is the most slippery concept of all. When an arbitrator merges a list based on a ratio and one company has operated for 26 (AWA)years and the other company 50 years (U) then you will get a result that we have here. Much younger AWA pilots slotted in with pilots who have been employed for many years longer. But the real effect though is that almost across the board the AWA pilots are MUCH younger. So, they not only get to capture the retirements that the U side would have had....thus letting U co-pilots move up to Capt after 20 years they will fly in those more senior Captain jobs for many years over and above what they would have gotten had they stayed AWA. In fact the VAST majority of the 517 U pilots placed at the top of the list would ALREADY BE GONE if the age 60 rule had not been changed to 65. So what ya got is YOUNGER, less SENIOR guys at AWA placed above OLDER, more SENIOR U guys. Thus the debacle we have now!! Not the fault of the AWA guys just the result of an arbitrator who penalized the older , more senior group because their company was in a more precarious financial position. AWA and U (AT THE TIME) were like 2 crack addicts arguing over who had the prettiest teeth!!!!

 

[des nudo]

I find it interesting that you have no problem with the union firing the people they represent. So I guess that if there is a possibility for the union to save a job when the company wants to terminate. They should throw their hands up and say. No chance for a last minute opportunity.

Remind me again what the purpose of usapa is? To DFR the west and try everything they can to break deals, steal jobs and fire west pilots.

Nice union you guys put together.

Oh well Karma can be cruel.

Im having. Trouble following. Your sentence structure. Sir. But let me explain.

Of course I have no problem with delinquencies being deleted...who would? The last few years have taught the east a thing or two about the west...not the least of which is the misguided impression that the louder you whine the more you get stroked. There's no "last minute deals" on a section 29....Doug Parker made it crystal clear to your senior daddy Captain out there (DOH 1983...too funny, excuse me) Watch the video again. Big Al (the hammer) spelled it out too.
A pilot has ample time to stop the inevitable...here's the catch: he has to believe he'll get canned.

Are you a believer?

Nobody needs to remind you of anything...you're a big-boy now. You work in a union shop airline and must pay dues to retain your job...end of story.

 

[traderjake]

you never heard of the AFA official "Chaos" campaign? Well ,, it is underway and the clock is ticking.
01-01-10. tic tic tic .......

If enough USAPA hardliners get themselves fired maybe we take control of the union.

 

[des nudo]

This part is a little confusing. I would read this as if the union takes out a USA Today add with the sole purpose of creating negative publicity against the company, I am not required to pay towards the collection of money allowing said negative publicity to occur. Did USAPA use dues money to pay for that embarrassing fuel add?

I'll answer your question with a question...even though you are reaching.

Do you know the difference between "dues" and "asessments"?

Because if you don't, I can help explain it to you...if you do, you already know your answer.

And I think you do.

"the collection of money" (sounds like an asessment) ... if you read what you wrote, gives you the answer.

What did YOUR contract say again?

 

[traderjake]

There's no "last minute deals" on a section 29....Doug Parker made it crystal clear to your senior daddy Captain out there (DOH 1983...too funny, excuse me) Watch the video again. Big Al (the hammer) spelled it out too.

You work in a union shop airline and must pay dues to retain your job...end of story.

Sounds like extortion.

When I got my section 29 letter the chief pilot said getting fired is a process.

The company does the firing, not USAPA.

Your celebrating is a little premature.

 

[luvn737s]

A pilot has ample time to stop the inevitable...here's the catch: he has to believe he'll get canned.

Are you a believer?

Nobody needs to remind you of anything...you're a big-boy now. You work in a union shop airline and must pay dues to retain your job...end of story.

Care to explain why one pilot would be terminated while another who is equally delinquent in his dues continues to work? Why is USAPA not forced to submit all the termination requests at the same time?

Or are we back to the "Some animals are more equal than others" arguement?

 

[des nudo]

If enough USAPA hardliners get themselves fired maybe we take control of the union.

Maybe. But there's a lot more bad news in west mailboxes...oh, and the clock starts at the stamped delivery date...not receipt date. I gather many AWA pilots don't pick up their mail anymore. <_<

" I hear my train a'comin'...."
Jimi Hendrix

 

[des nudo]

Care to explain why one pilot would be terminated while another who is equally delinquent in his dues continues to work? Why is USAPA not forced to submit all the termination requests at the same time?

This west strategy to foil section 29's was discussed at length on this board already..so, no you get no explanation again.

A totally random process so that comparisons such as you suggest are actually impossible. You guys must like standing on railroad tracks and jumping off just before you get plowed. USAPA is following the legally explained section 29 process to the T or big AL wouldn't be dropping the hammer.
Deal with it.

(Or not)

 

[des nudo]

When I got my section 29 letter the chief pilot said getting fired is a process.

The company does the firing, not USAPA.

Your celebrating is a little premature.

Yeah, well.....I wear a 42 regular coat.
Plan on selling yours? I could use a spare.

Maybe you should watch Hemenways explanation again. It will be AL who cuts you free. (unless you have restored yourself to currency and signed a dues check-off)

 

[traderjake]

Yeah, well.....I wear a 42 regular coat.
Plan on selling yours? I could use a spare.

Maybe you should watch Hemenways explanation again. It will be AL who cuts you free. (unless you have restored yourself to currency and signed a dues check-off)

I'm sure after the USAToday ad Al is real eager to do your dirty work.

I pay my agency fee by check.

No way I'd give those unethical clowns authority to take money from my check.

 

[des nudo]

I'm sure after the USAToday article Al is real eager to do your dirty work.

I pay my agency fee by check.

No way I'd give those unethical children authority to take money from my check.

Then I guess you will indeed meet the hammer, if you're 60 days out.
You will, in fact, be required to sign dues check-off to regain good standing...to wit:

B. Should a member become delinquent in the payment of dues and/or assessments for more than sixty (60) days such member shall be automatically placed in bad standing and lose all privileges of membership including the right to vote and hold office. A member can only be reinstated to good standing upon enrollment in dues check-off, the payment of all back dues and assessments based on qualifying income, reinstatement fees, interest and penalties owing or satisfactory deposit and signed promissory note

yawn

I just see now that you are an agency payer...check-off not required, but writing the check is mandatory...(if you like your job)