US Pilots Labor Discussion-8/12 to 8/19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[cleardirect]

You wouldn't believe the rheeming I got from my UXXXX handlers for that. Next they'l have a secret resulotion to remove me. I always post the whole thing or you get whacked later. Dot, Dot, Dot........

I know that you are making a joke. But in humor there is truth.

Better be careful. Usapa is desperate to silence ANY dissent or information that disagrees with their delusion. What you joke about could happen.

If, as you say you are just a member then usapa could go after you.

USAPA C&BL.

SECTION 6. MEMBER RIGHTS AND OBLIGATIONS

F. US Airways pilots are solemnly charged with the responsibility to, at all times and in all decisions, consider the consequences of their actions upon the lives and careers of their fellow union pilots and our profession. Pilots failing to adhere to this paragraph are subject to a fine, suspension and/or being placed in bad standing as USAPA members, on an individual basis, to be determined by the Board of Pilot Representatives.

Adding something that puts usapa in a bad light. It is up to the BPR to determine if it harmed usapa or not. The east pilots thought this would only be used against the west. This could come back and bite the east as well.

 

[flybynite]

Okay fellas. I have some questions that have nothing to do with what you continue to talk about.

How about a little fresh air.........Breathe in..Breathe out......

As you are all aware the f/a's are in joint negotiations. One of the latest proposals to us on the East was to separate from the pilots. Our JNC has not agreed to this. This raises serious concerns with our East f/a's. For good reason.

So to the West pilots....how do you feel about co-pairing with your f/a's. Would you like to have the same group of f/a's throughout your trip? Would you feel like you would have a more cohesive crew if you did so? I know it would be different but I think you'd like it.

We on the East think and know that by co-pairing with our pilots that it protects us with the pilot FAR's.

How do you feel about this? East and West.?

 

[hp_fa]

From the "you must be kidding me department".

SECTION 6. MEMBER RIGHTS AND OBLIGATIONS

F. US Airways pilots are solemnly charged with the responsibility to, at all times and in all decisions, consider the consequences of their actions upon the lives and careers of their fellow union pilots and our profession. Pilots failing to adhere to this paragraph are subject to a fine, suspension and/or being placed in bad standing as USAPA members, on an individual basis, to be determined by the Board of Pilot Representatives.

OK, we have known that provision has been in place for awhile. It seemed, at the time, that the BPR was being somewhat draconian is attempting to stifle free speech or free thought and that the BPR was the sole decider of who or what constituted a violation of it's constitution's potential restriction on their pilot's US Constitutional right of free speech. While it has appeared to me to be draconian, it was never, to my knowledge, actually enforced. You know, sort of an ambiguous "gotcha" for anyone they may conveniently decide to punish down the road.

Of course, that portion of the USAPA constitution may be in conflict with the following.

This Association, founded on the principles of democracy and accountability, aspires to provide through this Constitution and Bylaws (C&BLs,) equally to each member, the benefits and controls of a truly participative organization, which ensures freedom of speech while promoting integrity, honor and trust. The Association will be attentive and respectful of each member's opinions and concerns and will always encourage full voluntary participation.

Democracy and accountability are fine. There are lawful and appropriate limits to free speech and a balance must be kept between the two. But problems arise when we see "the benefits and controls of a truly participative organization" and the association being "attentive and respectful of each member's opinions and concerns and will always encourage full voluntary participation."

The problem occurs when the constitution is of an organization that has already been found to have committed a breach in the duty of fair representation and it's seeming myopic leadership seems to be pulling the strings of control closer and thereby inhibiting the benefits of membership in USAPA.

WHEREAS the USAPA BPR has a desire to streamline its communications to its pilot group, and

WHEREAS communications which are inconsistent with Board policy and position do not benefit the pilot group as a whole and may in-fact imperil various USAPA legal positions, and

WHEREAS the Board has determined that communications which emanate from other than official USAPA channels, currently defined as the USAPA web site and USAPA email distribution system, are not typically available for review and do not present the Association in the most professional manner possible, and

WHEREAS the Board has determined that the use of the USAPA acronym and/or USAPA titles indicates to the pilots that the source is official and therefore that the message can be trusted as consistent with Board policy and position, and

WHEREAS the Board has determined that communications shall have a uniform message, consistent with USAPA BPR approved policy and direction, and

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that is shall be USAPA policy that all USAPA communications shall be distributed only via official USAPA channels such as the USAPA web site and email distribution system, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that use of the USAPA acronym, either alone or combined with other letters and/or acronyms, and the US Airline Pilots name, shall be restricted to use only when associated with official USAPA communications

BE IT FINALLY RESOLVED that it shall be USAPA Policy that any and all USAPA communications shall be subject to review and revision to be consistent with USAPA BPR policy and direction prior to distribution.

The first paragraph is fine. The second is iffy. The third makes it almost seem that the BPR is deciding on what members may discuss if that information has not been pre-cleared by USAPA and determined that those conversations may not paint USAPA in the best possible light. The fourth paragraph almost makes it seem that USAPA is now about to claim that use of the acronym "USAPA" by anyone other than the officers, representatives and the communications committee of "USAPA" is unlawful because USAPA owns the term USAPA and/or US Airways Pilots Association. (I guess in the future I can refer to the USA Pickleball Association or the US Army Publishing Agency...)

How undemocratic can this collection of fools, which includes the esteemed (cough) legal counsel, be in running this organization. I have disagreed with some of you about the evil ALPA, arguing that the disease was from within rather than from without. But I seriously ask all of you, is the cure for the disease worse than the perceived disease was in the first place? That is a serious question.

Something needs to be done soon. I don't know what the appropriate venue is for fixing these problems and whether Judge Wake's courtroom is perhaps such a spot. The advantage of his venue is that he is already well-acquainted with some of the worse aspect of the US Pickleball Association and the thought process of its esteemed legal counsel, so the degree of disbelief at hearing or reading some of this would not last as long.

The question of "who will rid me of this troublesome priest" comes to mind. The question is whether the troublesome priest is the leadership of the Pickleball Association or the dissenters of the way the Pickleball Association conducts business. It is all in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Noah-Nothing]

Okay fellas. I have some questions that have nothing to do with what you continue to talk about.

How about a little fresh air.........Breathe in..Breathe out......

As you are all aware the f/a's are in joint negotiations. One of the latest proposals to us on the East was to separate from the pilots. Our JNC has not agreed to this. This raises serious concerns with our East f/a's. For good reason.

So to the West pilots....how do you feel about co-pairing with your f/a's. Would you like to have the same group of f/a's throughout your trip? Would you feel like you would have a more cohesive crew if you did so? I know it would be different but I think you'd like it.

We on the East think and know that by co-pairing with our pilots that it protects us with the pilot FAR's.

How do you feel about this? East and West.?

On the west, flight attendants sometimes exceed 8 hours per day, especially on turns to the east coast, have shorter layovers, and often have one early, short leg home the last day. Some of their flying is extremely productive, but some is not. You have issues with fatigue, reduced rest, and low credit. Aligning them with the pilots would increase overall productivity, at 5+15 credit per day, increase minimum RON times, but eliminate the 10 hour per day turns that are in high demand, generally going senior to class 1-5 or so.

Flying with the same crew is hit or miss. A great crew is wonderful, four days with a bad crew ruins the trip.

On the briefing, I notice having different crews causes me to be more concise each time, and I think that resets the crew coordination better than after the third or fourth leg saying something like same brief, one hour plus 30 en route, one water and one coffee(please-so often left out by me!).

I like flying with the same crew and aircraft each day, but on a four day, I like seeing a few fresh faces. I would really like to see equal treatment as far as rest, duty days, and crew meals.

NN(west pilot)

 

[nic4us]

As you are all aware the f/a's are in joint negotiations. One of the latest proposals to us on the East was to separate from the pilots. Our JNC has not agreed to this. This raises serious concerns with our East f/a's. For good reason.

So to the West pilots....how do you feel about co-pairing with your f/a's. Would you like to have the same group of f/a's throughout your trip? Would you feel like you would have a more cohesive crew if you did so? I know it would be different but I think you'd like it.

We on the East think and know that by co-pairing with our pilots that it protects us with the pilot FAR's.

How do you feel about this? East and West.?

West crews often have the same crew for 2 or even 3 days of a four day pairing. However, that is a bit of an exception and far from the rule. We also, have 3 different cabins, on 3 legs in the same day. My point is we are familiar with co-pairing.

By co-pairing you would be protected by the pilot contract, not just FARs. However, you may not want that much protection. For instance, the biggest time builders in PHX typically do day turns. 1 day pairings the pilots cannot even fly because they exceed 8 hrs.

So you are probably better off seeking enhancements to your contract that would protect you from excessive duty days and other abuses, while maximizing what you get paid for that day regardless of what the pilots are doing.

 

[flybynite]

West crews often have the same crew for 2 or even 3 days of a four day pairing. However, that is a bit of an exception and far from the rule. We also, have 3 different cabins, on 3 legs in the same day. My point is we are familiar with co-pairing.

By co-pairing you would be protected by the pilot contract, not just FARs. However, you may not want that much protection. For instance, the biggest time builders in PHX typically do day turns. 1 day pairings the pilots cannot even fly because they exceed 8 hrs.

So you are probably better off seeking enhancements to your contract that would protect you from excessive duty days and other abuses, while maximizing what you get paid for that day regardless of what the pilots are doing.

We are well aware of the abuses. Very big concern for us.

Those one day transcon turns while productive also have some very serious pitfalls.

Most of us on the East want to stay co-paired with our pilots for the same reasons you've stated. Yet there are those who think those one day transcon turns are a good idea. Not me...but that's just me. I don't want to be beat to death. I'd run off the road on the way home after a trip that brutal.

The way I look at it is......if it's not good for the pilot's it's not good for me either.

 

[nic4us]

The way I look at it is......if it's not good for the pilot's it's not good for me either.

Can't argue with that.

Perhaps the solution would be work rules where the prefered method of pairing generation is co-pairing ( we are normally paired together and you get the benefits of the pilot FARs and/or contract) yet a certain percentage of flying is built into high yield pairings for the time bandits.

 

[flybynite]

On the west, flight attendants sometimes exceed 8 hours per day, especially on turns to the east coast, have shorter layovers, and often have one early, short leg home the last day. Some of their flying is extremely productive, but some is not. You have issues with fatigue, reduced rest, and low credit. Aligning them with the pilots would increase overall productivity, at 5+15 credit per day, increase minimum RON times, but eliminate the 10 hour per day turns that are in high demand, generally going senior to class 1-5 or so.

Flying with the same crew is hit or miss. A great crew is wonderful, four days with a bad crew ruins the trip.

On the briefing, I notice having different crews causes me to be more concise each time, and I think that resets the crew coordination better than after the third or fourth leg saying something like same brief, one hour plus 30 en route, one water and one coffee(please-so often left out by me!).

I like flying with the same crew and aircraft each day, but on a four day, I like seeing a few fresh faces. I would really like to see equal treatment as far as rest, duty days, and crew meals.

NN(west pilot)

Oh I agree. Your crew can make or break a trip. But I really like staying with the same crew regardless. We make it work.

The f/a's on the West haven't had fair treatment at all. They have been treated like red-headed stepchildren. They should be given the same consideration as their flying partners, the pilots.

Thanks for saying you'd like to see equal treatment for the f/a's.

 

[des nudo]

From the "you must be kidding me department".



OK, we have known that provision has been in place for awhile. It seemed, at the time, that the BPR was being somewhat draconian is attempting to stifle free speech or free thought and that the BPR was the sole decider of who or what constituted a violation of it's constitution's potential restriction on their pilot's US Constitutional right of free speech. While it has appeared to me to be draconian, it was never, to my knowledge, actually enforced. You know, sort of an ambiguous "gotcha" for anyone they may conveniently decide to punish down the road.

Of course, that portion of the USAPA constitution may be in conflict with the following.



Democracy and accountability are fine. There are lawful and appropriate limits to free speech and a balance must be kept between the two. But problems arise when we see "the benefits and controls of a truly participative organization" and the association being "attentive and respectful of each member's opinions and concerns and will always encourage full voluntary participation."

The problem occurs when the constitution is of an organization that has already been found to have committed a breach in the duty of fair representation and it's seeming myopic leadership seems to be pulling the strings of control closer and thereby inhibiting the benefits of membership in USAPA.



The first paragraph is fine. The second is iffy. The third makes it almost seem that the BPR is deciding on what members may discuss if that information has not been pre-cleared by USAPA and determined that those conversations may not paint USAPA in the best possible light. The fourth paragraph almost makes it seem that USAPA is now about to claim that use of the acronym "USAPA" by anyone other than the officers, representatives and the communications committee of "USAPA" is unlawful because USAPA owns the term USAPA and/or US Airways Pilots Association. (I guess in the future I can refer to the USA Pickleball Association or the US Army Publishing Agency...)

How undemocratic can this collection of fools, which includes the esteemed (cough) legal counsel, be in running this organization. I have disagreed with some of you about the evil ALPA, arguing that the disease was from within rather than from without. But I seriously ask all of you, is the cure for the disease worse than the perceived disease was in the first place? That is a serious question.

Something needs to be done soon. I don't know what the appropriate venue is for fixing these problems and whether Judge Wake's courtroom is perhaps such a spot. The advantage of his venue is that he is already well-acquainted with some of the worse aspect of the US Pickleball Association and the thought process of its esteemed legal counsel, so the degree of disbelief at hearing or reading some of this would not last as long.

The question of "who will rid me of this troublesome priest" comes to mind. The question is whether the troublesome priest is the leadership of the Pickleball Association or the dissenters of the way the Pickleball Association conducts business. It is all in the eye of the beholder.

Again, I guess you completely abandon the "impartial" position. Opinions are fine...but for the record, don't ever imply you are impartial again on these boards. You're not, maybe never were..and that's fine. Man-up and just admit it.

More importantly, I'll hand you an example to chew on. If I get on a web chat every day starting tomorrow and toss out the phrase "hp_fa this" and "hp_fa that" all day long, it begins to appear that I speak for you or on your behalf.

Set your west hat on the table for a second, put your "paralegal" hat on, and see how that looks.

Perfectly understandable to draw a line on "official union positions" in contrast to chatboard bs.

I'd think you'd get this.

 

[WhatBag?]

We are well aware of the abuses. Very big concern for us.

Those one day transcon turns while productive also have some very serious pitfalls.

Most of us on the East want to stay co-paired with our pilots for the same reasons you've stated. Yet there are those who think those one day transcon turns are a good idea. Not me...but that's just me. I don't want to be beat to death. I'd run off the road on the way home after a trip that brutal.

The way I look at it is......if it's not good for the pilot's it's not good for me either.

The problem with pairing with the pilots is that yet another option is taken away. While I don't think I would ALWAYS want TC turns, I would like the option. I say fight for the protections we need AND give a chance for those of us that WOULD like to do the 9-10 one day turn option. I mean, come on, UVF in CLT is one of the most senior trips worth 9+45. Having that IRO doesn't do the F/A's any good, but the senior mama's still fly it.

I want the option to get my time in quickly. I could care less about nice long layovers anymore. I want nice HOME layovers!

 

[flybynite]

The problem with pairing with the pilots is that yet another option is taken away. While I don't think I would ALWAYS want TC turns, I would like the option. I say fight for the protections we need AND give a chance for those of us that WOULD like to do the 9-10 one day turn option. I mean, come on, UVF in CLT is one of the most senior trips worth 9+45. Having that IRO doesn't do the F/A's any good, but the senior mama's still fly it.

I want the option to get my time in quickly. I could care less about nice long layovers anymore. I want nice HOME layovers!

Where is UVF?

I have nice "home" layovers and I'm not beating the clock.

Come hang out with me at my pool. We'll have a few adult beverages and chill.

 

[des nudo]

Oh I agree. Your crew can make or break a trip. But I really like staying with the same crew regardless. We make it work.

The f/a's on the West haven't had fair treatment at all. They have been treated like red-headed stepchildren. They should be given the same consideration as their flying partners, the pilots.

Thanks for saying you'd like to see equal treatment for the f/a's.

It's generally always a plus. The east pilots have always enjoyed the "team-building" aspect of a cohesive and intact crew on a trip...especially in irregular ops. I hope they keep it that way. The alternative is F/A reg's for part of the crew (longer hours) and FAA reg's for pilots.

(read: better utilization of f/a's for the company...work harder with fewer flight attendants)


* oh, and I don't think any east pilot has EVER sued their own flight attendants....

 

[flybynite]

It's generally always a plus. The east pilots have always enjoyed the "team-building" aspect of a cohesive and intact crew on a trip...especially in irregular ops. I hope they keep it that way. The alternative is F/A reg's for part of the crew (longer hours) and FAA reg's for pilots.

(read: better utilization of f/a's for the company...work harder with fewer flight attendants)


* oh, and I don't think any east pilot has EVER sued their own flight attendants....

LOL!!

 

[des nudo]

<_<

LOL!!

 

[WhatBag?]

Where is UVF?

I have nice "home" layovers and I'm not beating the clock.

Come hang out with me at my pool. We'll have a few adult beverages and chill.

St Lucia...ok..where are u? lol