US Pilots Labor Discussion-8/12 to 8/19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[des nudo]

Ummm...whatever.

I tried to engage you in a discussion that you seemed to want to have and you won't even give me your definition of biased. I am not going to debate myself.

Not neeeded when you contradict yourself.


Answer my question, "counselor".

 

[Edward]

Two posters in this thread & you know who you are, are about to get time off if you don't stop the back & forth. No more warning.

 

[des nudo]

case closed...and I apologize for hijacking what could be a good thread.

 

[HPDriver]

Interesting how he's playing both sides of the fence.

----------------

Mr. Wilder(A): I think by definition if the two sides agree, it would be fair and equitable and the impartial resolution is traditionally viewed as fair and equitable even though one or the other pilot groups might not agree with that.

 

[jetjok1]

While it is my position that jumpseat denial is "Proof" of an individuals inability to set emotion aside, and act in a professional manner for the greater good of all involved. It is my understanding that the "Proof" has been submitted to HR, containing the names, date, flight number and other pertinent information that would not be appropriate for this board.

So if you are incapable of helping your fellow pilot out, by giving them a simple ride home or to work, and you decide to make a scene about it in front of others, do not be surprised if the "Proof" comes back in the form of an inquiry into your behavior.

Well, Nic, Since I will not, or have not, in the past, present, or future, ever, ever deny a jumpseat to anyone Cass approved a ride on my jumpseat......yet........ have been denied once by one of yours out of SFO to Clt that required me to lose my trip........based on what you said above...................WTF are you talking about!

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

That must have been agonizing, deciding between two brilliant attorneys like Wilder and Seham.

 

[Metroyet]

That must have been agonizing, deciding between two brilliant attorneys like Wilder and Seham.

NO Kidding! If they chose Seham, what kind of snake oil pushing, lying, charlatan hack is Wilder?

 

[Hawkhunter]

While it is my position that jumpseat denial is "Proof" of an individuals inability to set emotion aside, and act in a professional manner for the greater good of all involved. It is my understanding that the "Proof" has been submitted to HR, containing the names, date, flight number and other pertinent information that would not be appropriate for this board.

So if you are incapable of helping your fellow pilot out, by giving them a simple ride home or to work, and you decide to make a scene about it in front of others, do not be surprised if the "Proof" comes back in the form of an inquiry into your behavior.

And just think, it was not that long ago you guys defended your Western Bras for doing the same thing. Something about Captain authority and to much stress in the cockpit. How about not letting any East guy ride if he had on the dreaded "yellow lanyard". Remember that cute little contract one of you guys came up with? It stated that if a East pilot broke one of the rules the West pilots would land at the nearist suitable airport. You guys have pounded your chest proudly about not letting any East Pilot ride on your aircraft. Must be that Karma thing.

 

[Hawkhunter]

Well, Nic, Since I will not, or have not, in the past, present, or future, ever, ever deny a jumpseat to anyone Cass approved a ride on my jumpseat......yet........ have been denied once by one of yours out of SFO to Clt that required me to lose my trip........based on what you said above...................WTF are you talking about!

You forgot jetjok1, its okay if thay do it.

 

[cubfan]

You forgot jetjok1, its okay if thay do it.

In all reality, it's not ok for anyone. I must live in a hole, but for the most part I thought most of this was behind us. Any one who denies, IMO just needs to exercise the little power they think they have. I think Capt. authority when used in this way is a complete joke. Their just trying to be the BMOC. If you think that denying a jumpseat will change anyones feelings/opinions you must have your head in the sand. I respect your opinion, but leave it out of the flight deck and off the J/S.

 

[nic4us]

Well, Nic, Since I will not, or have not, in the past, present, or future, ever, ever deny a jumpseat to anyone Cass approved a ride on my jumpseat......yet........ have been denied once by one of yours out of SFO to Clt that required me to lose my trip........based on what you said above...................WTF are you talking about!

I have not denied either, but recently offered to ride up front on an east flight if the Captain would approve it, to accomodate another non-rev, the Captain declined, I still got on the airplane, but we left someone behind.

What I am talking about is a new twist, the F/O denied this pilot because we are a "closed shop" and was unwilling to give a ride to a non-member. Called him derogatory names in public, and stated that a list was being written so folks like him could reference who to deny specifically.

First, we are not a closed shop, we are an agency shop. Second, this was not Captain authority, but F/O authority, prior to the Captain's knowledge. Third, it happened in public. Finally, if this list becomes available, I will ask to see it from the next east pilot I allow up front, I will highlight my name on it for him/her and tell them to be careful with that guy.

And just think, it was not that long ago you guys defended your Western Bras for doing the same thing. Something about Captain authority and to much stress in the cockpit. How about not letting any East guy ride if he had on the dreaded "yellow lanyard". Remember that cute little contract one of you guys came up with? It stated that if a East pilot broke one of the rules the West pilots would land at the nearist suitable airport. You guys have pounded your chest proudly about not letting any East Pilot ride on your aircraft. Must be that Karma thing.

I do not know who fired the first shot, nor do I care. I did not defend this and argued against it on the AWAPPA web board and in the West crew room. That contract thing was over the top. If someone handed me that I would have laughed in their face, turned to their F/O and said "I thought you folks had a No Fly provision".

Might be Karma, but in the final analysis, two wrongs do not, will not, and have never made one right.

In all reality, it's not ok for anyone. I must live in a hole, but for the most part I thought most of this was behind us. Any one who denies, IMO just needs to exercise the little power they think they have. I think Capt. authority when used in this way is a complete joke. .............but leave it out of the flight deck and off the J/S.

Agree completely, but would like to add......If you can not get past this, keep it out of public view.

 

[Megasnoop]

"Pickleball Assn, esteemed counsel, illegal union, guilty, dishonest." We keep hearing these words just meant to stur anger. If personal attacks are all the west has left, if that's your agenda, I dont think its working. The issues are what matters. Our communications putting out a sanitized version of the blog I posted is not getting in the gutter with Internet gossip and innuendo. Its what it is: spin. Attacking that was lame. Fellow East pilots, its not working for our end either. All the claims that UXXXX is less democratic than ALPA and doesn't allow freedom of speech, just read the West BPR updates. There is no way ALPA would allow a release like that. That the latest comm resolution was passed in secret, if it was so secret, why did USAPA post it? Secret is the old MEC's LOA95 that Woerth and the company signed on 23 Sept 2005, giving the FPLers line cap. That one never was distributed to East ALPA members. No one knew except those getting it.

Ive disagreed with UXXXX's first and now leadership. In fact I only voted for 1 of the 6 now in office. But they don't put me down or take away memberhip privledges for what I say. Read my old posts. I thought the RICO could have been handled better. It was like trying to kill a cockroach by spraying it in a tub of Sarin gas. A lot of collateral damage to the good bugs. I'll say what I said before, this needs to be ended.
Both sides got a lot to offer on this, but these fighting words and total made up stories aren't the way to go. Its driven off good posters on both sides. I can't quit because UXXXX is paying me $10,000/month and $100 per post, but others have.

This post was not aimed at anyone, but think before posting can make a better exchange of info and ideas. To Piney Bob on that, I agree,Thinking both sides don't pay close attention to this on other boards and have posters that stay on top of it is naive and so what?
The appeal, LOA84 pay, $35 M bonus, RJ flying and flight hour reduction will all play out on their own. There arent enough votes to remove UXXXX or the leadership between now and then. Sorry, west, but that's the way this will happen. Why not concentrate on what we can change. If you don't like a resolution, write your own and take it to your BPR. You west guys probably don't even have to join to do that.

Snoop (quickest $100 I ever made)

 

[Metroyet]

Sorry, west, but that's the way this will happen. Why not concentrate on what we can change. If you don't like a resolution, write your own and take it to your BPR.

You seem pretty informed on BPR (Board of Pickleballer Reps) matters. Out of curiosity, what is the track record for all resolutions brought forth by the West Reps? How many of those resolutions actually went anywhere? BTW, this attitude is hysterical:

"Sorry, west, but that's the way this will happen"

Isn't the East growing weary of being wrong all the time? I know I would be.

 

[Al Legheny]

We are well aware of the abuses. Very big concern for us.

Those one day transcon turns while productive also have some very serious pitfalls.

Most of us on the East want to stay co-paired with our pilots for the same reasons you've stated. Yet there are those who think those one day transcon turns are a good idea. Not me...but that's just me. I don't want to be beat to death. I'd run off the road on the way home after a trip that brutal.

The way I look at it is......if it's not good for the pilot's it's not good for me either.

One of the things not being considerd by posters on this board is East coast Weather. The old US Airways had ample opportunity to seek the additional and supposed benefits of splitting front end and rear end crews to allow for greater duty time for F/A's. Piedomnt did this and as their route system moved further North it became a problem.

The change in crews generally happens in a hub airport. If that Hub goest down for weather then the sytem starts to fall apart as crews and aircraft end up out of position. We are well overdue for a bad winter and the limitations of crew swapping willl be brought home to managment when it does happen.

Several years ago we had a rather nasty divert situaition in PHL when some Freezing rain didn't move off as predicted. I was inbound to PHL from out West and we didn't make it. Many flights didn't make it. This was only one day and the impact was major system wide.

If you add the need for crew changes and out of position crews you make a bad situaition worse. I believe that is why this method has not been used out East. IF you get bad weather you keep the crew together and when it clears up you are ready to go with a complete crew.

My humble.$02.

 

[HPDriver]

"How does it not have anything to do with F/As? Better question, what does it have to do with an America West pilot, at all?"

Quite a bit considering the MEC changed their version of the seniority list from showing MDA as being furloughed to being active pilots. A bit of chicanery that Nicolau looked past.

"Yes. One must always receive a furlough notice before being recalled in any way, shape or form. Is that confusing to you?"

Not at all. But you seem to think they were considered "recalled" when they were flying for MDA which shows your confusion. I'm wondering why Monda chose to fly as bottom FO with a horrible schedule when, by your logic, he could have been a THE senior pilot at MDA. Why? Because he couldn't. J4J required you be furloughed to accept a position there. If you were furloughed, you weren't a part of mainline. Paychecks, badges, etc. mean zero. Once again, refer to LOA 91 and 93.

And why the longevity gap between Monda and Collelo?

This is the best one. So what you're saying is, a mainline pilot flying on the mainline certificate but in a smaller, fenced division with it's own contract, is not a mainline pilot?

Division, section, called it what you will. But it was completely separate from mainline. And, as US Stew incorrectly pointed out, the MDA pilots DID NOT have a contract. They were working on one, but did not have one. They were using Eagle's as a template.

Anyone one here look at LOA 91 and 93? Of course not because we wouldn't be having this discussion on the correct forum now. Anyone familiar with the APL? CEL?

"Can you bid on an A330? No, you can't...

Genius argument. I can't yet because we don't have one CBA, but that's just a matter of time. After the CBA, I can move to CLT and take my place as senior FO.