US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cactusboy53]

Are you guys ever gonna stop the name calling, excuse making, flame throwing, low blows and WORK IT OUT?!

You're worse than children in daycare, I swear to the Sandcastle.

Stop your madness and fix it please. I miss the fun, professional, adult pilots I used to know.

Seriously, it's beyond out of control. For the love.

VA;
Each group has its 10%'s, and that is unfortunate with regard to the name-calling. The problem that we have here is our "union" is doing several things that are to the purposeful detriment of all AWA pilots:

1. Continued attempts to breech the final and binding Nicolau Award. This costs HUGE legal fees, as paid for by our "union". To date USAPA has spent nearly 2.5 Million on this event ALONE.

2. The continued assault on the Cactus 18 pilots for RICO charges. The case was dismissed by a lower court WITH PREJUDICE, but USAPA has continued the fight. These legal fees are (I believe) in excess of $300,000.

3. As a direct result of #1 & #2, the AWA pilots have had to respond legally. This is on the AWA pilot body ALONE (vs. our dues at work). Those bills collectively range around 2.1 Million or so. The neat thing about this though is that parents of our pilots are contributing, pilots from other properties are contributing. Heck, maybe we can even get LCC management to contribute....

4. All USAPA committees are controlled by east pilots (chairmen /chairwomen), and largely staffed with east pilots.

The AWA pilot group has had to fight tooth and nail just to keep the status quo of separate operations. Had we not put up a fight, a DOH cram-down would have been eminent. That would have put AAA pilots that were furloughed at the time of the merger ahead of standing AWA captains.

We would love to stop the madness, but the madness continues in Charlotte. Nothing will be resolved until the courts decide. Look for this (and our existing contracts) to continue for the next couple of years. The good news is I've heard there is a pilot shortage on the way.........

 

[LSS]

Dear Judges,

We understand you have ordered Judge Wake to dismiss our case but can't you pretend we won and still make USAPA pay us our damages?.......... AOL dba. LOL


From the West pilot group - Leonidas update 6/12:


Yesterday, our attorneys filed a motion to clarify the opinion that was published by the appellate panel hearing our case. Please click to read the PETITION FOR CLARIFICATION FRAP RULE 40.

Practically speaking, there is no way for USAPA to deviate from the Nicolau Award yet at the same time account for the balance of expectancies contained therein. That is essentially why Judge Wake and Judge Bybee believe our case is ripe; to them the outcome of negotiations is irrelevant as any result that is different from the Nicolau cannot possibly pass an objective test of what is fair. Judge Graber and Tashima, however, felt it was best to give the union one more chance to bargain fairly. We are disappointed in that the second chance to USAPA means more litigation and expenses for the West. What it means for the East is many more months (if not years) at bankruptcy wages and work rules. In the end, however, the West merely needs to keep funding this litigation to protect what is ours. As long as the dollars keep coming in, then the West merely needs to wait for the case to be “unquestionably ripe,” as Judges Graber and Tashima said. We will not give up – EVER

Your expectations??? Well "YOUR EXPECTATIONS" do not necessarily equate to bargaining in good faith for ALL PILOTS OF US AIRWAYS!
Again, you insist on having YOUR WAY or NOTHING!... My prediction... no West and East pilot will ever share the flight deck... particularly if this is the prevailing attitude of those west of the Mississippi!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Well "YOUR EXPECTATIONS" do not necessarily equate to bargaining in good faith for ALL PILOTS OF US AIRWAYS!

Yet bargaining for the expectations of the East pilots is fine?

Jim

 

[LSS]

Yet bargaining for the expectations of the East pilots is fine?

Jim

Was I not clear???... ALL US AIRWAYS PILOTS

 

[BoeingBoy]

Was I not clear???... ALL US AIRWAYS PILOTS

Easy to say, as long as it's your expectations that are largely met. Exactly how does USAPA faithfully, without discrimination represent ALL US pilots when the two sides are diametrically opposed on an issue (have different expectations for the outcome)? Does USAPA give the East what it wants - a DOH based seniority list with C&R's that effectively locks the West pilots into PHX? Is that representing ALL the US pilots?

Jim

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

VA;
Each group has its 10%'s, and that is unfortunate with regard to the name-calling. The problem that we have here is our "union" is doing several things that are to the purposeful detriment of all AWA pilots:

1. Continued attempts to breech the final and binding Nicolau Award. This costs HUGE legal fees, as paid for by our "union". To date USAPA has spent nearly 2.5 Million on this event ALONE.

2. The continued assault on the Cactus 18 pilots for RICO charges. The case was dismissed by a lower court WITH PREJUDICE, but USAPA has continued the fight. These legal fees are (I believe) in excess of $300,000.

3. As a direct result of #1 & #2, the AWA pilots have had to respond legally. This is on the AWA pilot body ALONE (vs. our dues at work). Those bills collectively range around 2.1 Million or so. The neat thing about this though is that parents of our pilots are contributing, pilots from other properties are contributing. Heck, maybe we can even get LCC management to contribute....

4. All USAPA committees are controlled by east pilots (chairmen /chairwomen), and largely staffed with east pilots.

The AWA pilot group has had to fight tooth and nail just to keep the status quo of separate operations. Had we not put up a fight, a DOH cram-down would have been eminent. That would have put AAA pilots that were furloughed at the time of the merger ahead of standing AWA captains.

We would love to stop the madness, but the madness continues in Charlotte. Nothing will be resolved until the courts decide. Look for this (and our existing contracts) to continue for the next couple of years. The good news is I've heard there is a pilot shortage on the way......... : OH MY I JUST CAN'T HOLD BACK THOSE TEARS!MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

That pilot shortage thing, you might want to rethink that one, how do you think a new hire on the EAST will vote when the chance for advancement( attrition kicks in) with WEST stagnation(HECK WHEN WAS A BID IN THE WEST LAST PUBLISHED) 250 RETS A YEAR A330/b767 INT'l flying EAST UPGRADES getting raises ( loa 93 payrate win) HOLY PILOT SHORTAGE BATMAN! alot of experienced guys at SPIRIT! MM They may be just fine with seperate ops, that risk thing!

 

[nic4us]

That my friend.....is your BIG mistake. You assume that only the furloughed guys were hammered by
NIC...BIG MISTAKE anyone hired here in 82 or later got hurt ...only some get the ultimate hurt under NIC.......
retire at 65 never having left seat pay. Why do you think all of this has gone down??? because of a 9 year furloughee
Like I sad BIG MISTAKE on the West part. Remember you didn't even exist until 83.....

NICDOA
NPJB

No mistake here Barrister, I actually have read the Nic.

Anyone hired after 82? you are saying that anyone who did not have the entire West pilot group stapled below them was "hammered".

east82 hires are paired with West 86 and earlier hires

east 84 hirers are paired with West 87,88,89 hires, who are amongst our more senior captains.

east 85 hires are paired with West 89,90,91,96,97,98 hires, who are also all captains.

The problem is not when you were hired, the problem is there are so dang many of you hired in a short time frame.

Heck, you got enough pilots over there to vote in a new union and get yourselves sued.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

HECK , your free enough to spend 1.8 on something "QUESTIONABLE" dupe others to contribute and get to do it again,ah youth is wasted on the young! MM! You rock , SAINT NIC IS DOA!

 

[Barrister]

No mistake here Barrister, I actually have read the Nic.

Anyone hired after 82? you are saying that anyone who did not have the entire West pilot group stapled below them was "hammered".

east82 hires are paired with West 86 and earlier hires

east 84 hirers are paired with West 87,88,89 hires, who are amongst our more senior captains.

east 85 hires are paired with West 89,90,91,96,97,98 hires, who are also all captains.

The problem is not when you were hired, the problem is there are so dang many of you hired in a short time frame.

Heck, you got enough pilots over there to vote in a new union and get yourselves sued.

Yea dude...just keep crunching those numbers.......
Us and Pi were hiring 30-40 each per month (mostly PI) back then....
and AW well....like I said you didn't even exist until 83
nuff said

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

No mistake here Barrister, I actually have read the Nic.

Anyone hired after 82? you are saying that anyone who did not have the entire West pilot group stapled below them was "hammered".

east82 hires are paired with West 86 and earlier hires

east 84 hirers are paired with West 87,88,89 hires, who are amongst our more senior captains.

east 85 hires are paired with West 89,90,91,96,97,98 hires, who are also all captains.

The problem is not when you were hired, the problem is there are so dang many of you hired in a short time frame.

Heck, you got enough pilots over there to vote in a new union and get yourselves sued.

By the way thanks for proving our point....NIC was straight ratio
depending on how many aircraft. Lets say you guys expanded by
300% per year for 5 years....under NIC with his STRAIGHT
MATHEMATICAL RATIO .. it would have been even worse....
just goes to show what happens when you merge an OLD work group
with a very young one and don't take that into consideration....
you get a list that was bad enopugh for the older group to do
something unprecedented, spend millions of dollars with the
resolve to do it all again if need be. BUT....YOU ALREADY KNEW THAT DIDN'T YOU??

YOU GETTING IT YET??

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

You'll raise money again and sue? Don't you have to pay off your current bills to get a do-over? Ninth pretty much telegraphed how a do-over would work. You think the NIC was fair AND still binding. Ninth didn't comment on the fairness, only that we don't need to use it. Or did you miss that part?



The old nine person jury, that only got to hear one side of the case. Wake won't happen again. He got frog-marched by the Ninth. And the next district judge (if there is another trial) won't be able to exclude NIC seniority alternatives. It's called precedent, 73, and there's lots of precedent to be read into the record in a future action from what the Ninth ruled.



You need a reread on Freund. He was talking about two parties, all right, but the two parties were labor and management. Going forward, now the NMB is involved in mediation. Try a little research. See if you can find an NMB-mediated contract that ever ended up in a DFR win.



Of course it got tossed. It was gibberish, should have never been filed. But that was the fools at ALPA, not USAPA. Sooner or later you're going to realize USAPA is not ALPA minus NIC. ALPA got voted off the island for a lot more reasons than the NIC. THe NIC was only the catalyst.



Start all over 5 years from now? Add another 2-3 years to that? By then you'll have most of the attrition anyway. But then, it's obviously all about making a point, even if you can't win, isn't it? How's that funding raising going?



My bad. I left out a sentence. How about this: USAPA has no legal or moral obligation to use the NIC. The Ninth AGREED!

NIC, a little refresher that might need to be repeated! MM

 

[233KILLS]

By the way thanks for proving our point....NIC was straight ratio
depending on how many aircraft. Lets say you guys expanded by
300% per year for 5 years....under NIC with his STRAIGHT
MATHEMATICAL RATIO .. it would have been even worse....
just goes to show what happens when you merge an OLD work group
with a very young one and don't take that into consideration....
you get a list that was bad enopugh for the older group to do
something unprecedented, spend millions of dollars with the
resolve to do it all again if need be. BUT....YOU ALREADY KNEW THAT DIDN'T YOU??

YOU GETTING IT YET??

NICDOA
NPJB

This is the "straight mathematical ratio" from the Nic.

A ratio based on 167 and 90 B757 Captains
A ratio based on 873 and 767 A320/B737 Captains
A·ratio based on 176 and 87 B757 First Officers
A ratio based on 840 and 718 A320/B737 First Officers.

 

[nic4us]

spend millions of dollars with the
resolve to do it all again if need be. BUT....YOU ALREADY KNEW THAT DIDN'T YOU??

YOU GETTING IT YET??

NICDOA
NPJB

Trust me, I get it.

"Defendant-Appelant is directerd to file a response to Plaintiff-Appellee's Petition for Clarification within 21 days of the date of this order." 15 june 2010.

 

[luvthe9]

I am really starting to get suspicious.

You have stated you are in the top 300. Yet you seem to have a dog in the MDA fight. Oldie makes post implying he is probably around 48 years old, but talks like he has assumed the persona of a much more senior pilot. Some of the other ardent east posters keep throwing out misleading claims as to what their status was pre-merger, yet are overly knowledgeable of the status within the ranks of the east furloughs.

More level headed east posters like, nyc, underpants, gracho, pi-brat, piedmont, cubfan(hope he is doing well) et al, seem to have a philisophical difference of opinion, but really do not get overly distraught at the prospects of not being able to steal West jobs. They know they do not like the Nic, but really do not get overly emotional when confronted with its implementation.

So I will simply ask a straight forward question of the east posters.

I am still, and was at the time of the merger, and was for many years prior to that, a 320 captain. I was never furloughed, hold a decent line and get weekends off now and again. usapa would like to put over 1500 F/Os ahead of me, along with a couple hundred furloughees.

My question for the east posters is, was your east seniority below Colello's?

The fact I am extremely interested in the MDA issue is completely founded. I know these guys who were furloughed, and fly with them. A lot went other places, having no idea that had they gone to MDA, they would not have been really furloughed, just working under a fraudulent scenario. We all have a dog in the MDA fight. The furloughed guys shared a cockpit with me for years. They have been screwed at every turn. They deserve more, and they will get more. The remark you make of "you are overly knowledgeable of the status within the ranks of the east furloughs" insinuates I should have no concern. I am absolutely on their side. They took the biggest loss in the company.The MDA fraud was another reason why ALPA got tossed. This was sold as a "soft landing" with good pay. Well, our ALPA MEC watered it down really nicely. And all these guys who were my F/O's for years, ended up getting screwed in J4J. What a ridiculous sell out. Yes, I know a lot about it, and if others on the upper end of the seniority list knew, they should be ashamed they didn't put up more of a fight. I used to want my son to go into this business. Now, forget it. Good for you that you were so fortunate. I was also. I kept in touch with these guys, and was sick over what happened. By the way, I also flew with Joe Monda. He also flew at Eastern. You are not going to put him with a new hire. I guarantee that.