US Pilots Labor Discussion 4/6- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[HP2USFA]

That one thing does not prevent a new contract.

Oh, but it does. If you guys haven't even begun to work out changes in duty times and rig limits how on earth could we possibly negotiate those same sections when the East CBA has a me too clause that relies directly on that information. Heck the whole recall mess we had over here dealt directly with the copying of an early draft of your scheduling section direct from USAPA and being used by Mr. Flores in joint negotiations. That section is tabled in our joint negotiations by the way... until the pilot section is finished or we have a miracle and the me too clause is dropped.

 

[nic4us]

Because the claim of "That's all we wanted" is exactly what you say - revisionist history. The NC initially stated their goal of "protecting the widebody flying and attrition" and were threatened with recall for not insisting on DOH. Now that the "all or nothing" yielded only "nothing", there's all this blather about "We only wanted _____, what's unreasonable about that?"

Jim

Not to nitpick, I understand the sentiment of your post, but the true bottom line is not, the east went "all or nothing" and got "nothing". The east went for it all, and got something in excess of 2/3rds. This whole arguement that they no longer get their attrition is BS. Really what they are saying is we want our attrition and we want to be senior to the West pilots.

Take Monda for instance. The bottom guy at an airline about to go out of bussiness. Had the company survived he could look forward to 250-300 retirements a year. To move from dead last to half way up 2800 would take 1400 retirements, or approximately 5-6 years. With the merger he gets an increase of retirements up to 350 per year. Now to move from dead last to half way up 4600 pilots ( 2300/350=6.5 years).

The award is entirely fair in terms of capturing attrition. The east shares 1/3rd of its attrition, and the West gives up 2/3rds of its attrition.

What the east posters on this board are saying is, I want Monda to start at number 3000 out of 4600 pilots and then capture the 350 or so retirements a year. So then he only has to go from 3000 to 2300 to make captain, 700 numbers and it would only take 2 years. An obvious windfall for Monda, who may or may not have upgraded absent the merger.

 

[CallawayGolf]

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

I have no doubt that the City of Phoenix is #5, and the City of Philadelphia is #6. But I would wager that the population of the metropolitan area of Philadelphia blows metro Phoenix clean out of the water. Or sandbox, if you prefer. It would not surprise me if metro Philly has more people than the entire state of Arizona.

Based on US Census projections, it looks like PHX metro has about 4.2M (ranked 12th) and AZ has about 6.2M statewide.
PHL metro has about 6.2M (ranked 6th) and PA has about 12.6M statewide.

Anybody have the O&D traffic stats for PHX, PHL, IAD and DEN? That would be the best forecast of a hub's survival in a merger with UA.

 

[End of USAPA]

This game is faaarrr from over. The desert judge got it wrong and the ninth will confirm this soon. USAPA filed an emergency stay and it has a VERY GOOD chance of changing things. USAPA may be over, I new this from the start, but we got a few more years away from you out west. In my bood that is success.

 

[Poug Darker]

That's it? Really?

How come this wasn't part of your strategy during negotiations? How about during Mediation? What about during the arbitration? How about weeks after the arbitration concluded, when your group was told to come back with something workable because there was no way you were getting Date of Hire?

No, in fact, Easties wanted it all, and wanted the West to pay for it.

Please stop trying to rewrite history. The pilots of America West are not responsible for the dismal career that US East pilots had in the past 20 years.

That's just it. You weren't responsible for the last 20 years. Why should you benefit from our sacrifices?
The east guys don't want anything the west has. Keep your west stuff - please. But let us keep ours, too. To me, it seems like the west wants it all.....vehemently.
And I wasn't in charge during negotiations, as I surmise YOU weren't either...my least favorite labor union in the world, ALPA, attempted and failed to represent my interests.
And look where that has gotten us.
I assume that if ALPA ever gets to represent us again, it'll be the same mess all over again, but this time with no membership vote - just like last time.

 

[CallawayGolf]

What's a bood? h34r:


That seems rather low.

Depends on how much you trust census projections. Here's a link from 2008 which projects 6.5M.

Census Quick Facts

 

[HP2USFA]

I swear I read something about Maricopa county having a 5mil population a couple of years back. Wish I could remember where. Though I suppose there was a mass exodus during the housing collapse.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I swear I read something about Maricopa county having a 5mil population a couple of years back. Wish I could remember where. Though I suppose there was a mass exodus during the housing collapse.

Not to mention Sheriff Joe cracking down on the illegals who snuck in and have snuck back out!

A metropolitan area can have a high population and a low O&D traffic volume. It depends on how much the population travels using air service. A high population, low income area with low business travel patterns will not produce a high O&D. When the airline considers a hub's viability it will be based on O&D not how many people a community has.

 

[Flippin43]

I'm curious. I thought you were a F/A, what makes you an authority on the Nic award?

It's so obvious that what usapa is doing is wrong that even an F/A (no slam intended) can see it clearly, and your some how baffled at this?

Interesting how any time someone starts saying something you don't like, their motivations are questioned.

Flip

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not to nitpick

You are correct, but I meant "nothing" in the context of "DOH and nothing else". By sticking to that, the East got none of what they now say was all they wanted all along - attrition protection, fences, etc.

Jim

 

[HP2USFA]

It's so obvious that what usapa is doing is wrong that even an F/A (no slam intended) can see it clearly, and your some how baffled at this?

Interesting how any time someone starts saying something you don't like, their motivations are questioned.

Flip

No need to worry I don't think any of us would think that was a slam.

 

[mweiss]

It would not surprise me if metro Philly has more people than the entire state of Arizona.

Pretty close. About 6 million in each.

 

[cleardirect]

OK...I'll accept the Nic and vote for any contract you like. Just add one little fence that West pilots stay in the West and East pilots stay in East bases.

Done deal...OK?

Driver B)

No problem. Many east pilots have said that all you want is what you brought. Now you want a bright line fencing the bases. A fence that you never asked for BTW. I would agree to that.

My condition would be that you keep what you HAD and every NEW aircraft and EVERY new block hour be given to the PHX base. We never come to your base or take what you HAD. New European cities would be flown by PHX crews, new service to any city, flown by PHX crews.

The west pilots are future thinking and want to move forward. You east pilots can continue to live in the past and worry about what you HAD.

Done deal you keep what you had with a fence. The west gets everything new going forward. Deal?

 

[A320 Driver]

No problem. Many east pilots have said that all you want is what you brought. Now you want a bright line fencing the bases. A fence that you never asked for BTW. I would agree to that.

My condition would be that you keep what you HAD and every NEW aircraft and EVERY new block hour be given to the PHX base. We never come to your base or take what you HAD. New European cities would be flown by PHX crews, new service to any city, flown by PHX crews.

The west pilots are future thinking and want to move forward. You east pilots can continue to live in the past and worry about what you HAD.

Done deal you keep what you had with a fence. The west gets everything new going forward. Deal?

Sure...every NEW (not replacement) aircraft and NEW service (not previously flown by East crews).

Deal...


Driver B)

 

[Poug Darker]

No problem. Many east pilots have said that all you want is what you brought. Now you want a bright line fencing the bases. A fence that you never asked for BTW. I would agree to that.

My condition would be that you keep what you HAD and every NEW aircraft and EVERY new block hour be given to the PHX base. We never come to your base or take what you HAD. New European cities would be flown by PHX crews, new service to any city, flown by PHX crews.

The west pilots are future thinking and want to move forward. You east pilots can continue to live in the past and worry about what you HAD.

Done deal you keep what you had with a fence. The west gets everything new going forward. Deal?

Ok, and the east will resume flying that 24% that the west is currently doing?