US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[BoeingBoy]

I see what you're saying. However...

You're probably surprised but I tend to agree with you, for whatever either of our opinions is worth. I was just clairifying what I thought cynic was saying - not that M-B would apply to this merger but that if just changing unions gives the results East claims M-B is easy to avoid (or invoke if that's seen as advantageous) in future airline mergers.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

..............., there are a plenty of people outside of USAPA and ALPA who see the through this end run strategy.

Including Wake,Bybee,Gaber,Tashima.

Four federal judges, two dems, two reps, and they all have agreed on one thing, what usapa is trying to do, ain't going to happen.

DOH is DOA.

 

[767intl]

Not West opinion but that of the 9th. Send them something without the Nic in a contract and see what happens.

You'll raise money again and sue? Don't you have to pay off your current bills to get a do-over? Ninth pretty much telegraphed how a do-over would work. You think the NIC was fair AND still binding. Ninth didn't comment on the fairness, only that we don't need to use it. Or did you miss that part?

Which is why they got their a$$e$ handed to them by a nine person jury. Do it again in a contract and wait and see if there's any difference in the verdict.

The old nine person jury, that only got to hear one side of the case. Wake won't happen again. He got frog-marched by the Ninth. And the next district judge (if there is another trial) won't be able to exclude NIC seniority alternatives. It's called precedent, 73, and there's lots of precedent to be read into the record in a future action from what the Ninth ruled.

Two parties to an arbitration can always agree to modify the result. The problem for you and your fellow USAPIANs is that there is no one to negotiate with any more. You didn't think this through, did you? What Freund said was a 100% correct...at that time.

You need a reread on Freund. He was talking about two parties, all right, but the two parties were labor and management. Going forward, now the NMB is involved in mediation. Try a little research. See if you can find an NMB-mediated contract that ever ended up in a DFR win.

Do you realize that what you just said is utter gibberish? You Easties withdrew your suit in the DC Court!

Of course it got tossed. It was gibberish, should have never been filed. But that was the fools at ALPA, not USAPA. Sooner or later you're going to realize USAPA is not ALPA minus NIC. ALPA got voted off the island for a lot more reasons than the NIC. THe NIC was only the catalyst.

It's up to USAPA. The West will be happy to do it again whether next year or in five years. We have the time to wait . . .

Start all over 5 years from now? Add another 2-3 years to that? By then you'll have most of the attrition anyway. But then, it's obviously all about making a point, even if you can't win, isn't it? How's that funding raising going?

Do you see the obvious contradiction between the two sentences?

My bad. I left out a sentence. How about this: USAPA has no legal or moral obligation to use the NIC. The Ninth AGREED!

 

[BoeingBoy]

BB... you speak as if replacing a union on a property is no more difficult than changing your pants... It is not so easily achieved, but was way overdue on the US Airways property.

Looking at past history you'd be right, but that was before this merger. As I said, if East is right and merely changing unions alters the results it may well become more popular in the future. All it takes is a majority of a group wanting to do it and 6 months or so.

Playing devil's advocate since I think NYBusDriver is probably right, imagine if M-B were in effect for this merger. You remember the West FA's attempting to get AFA to change merger policy, right. If East is right, the west FA's could have just changed unions and have gotten arbitration instead of AFA's straight DOH. Then if East didn't like the arbitration result they wanted, they change unions and the first arbitration award goes away.

Jim

 

[LSS]

Including Wake,Bybee,Gaber,Tashima.

Four federal judges, two dems, two reps, and they all have agreed on one thing, what usapa is trying to do, ain't going to happen.

DOH is DOA.

Nic...

Just add this to the tsunami of opinions here… Let’s wait and see what USAPA comes up with… Let’s see if the “harm” the west pilots envision actually materialize… Only then will we have an inkling of what’s going to happen… If it places a truly furloughed East pilot above a line holding West Captain… then I would tend to agree with you. If not, well we’ll just have to wait and see…

 

[luvthe9]

Jetz,

I am glad you asked. You will not get an answere from any east posters, because their wholesale attempt of stealing West seniority is absolutely indefensible.

First, ALPA was not free to abandon the award, Prater told the east as much when they stormed Herndon, and again later as he catered to their temper tantrum.

Second, prior to the merger, the status a 16 year east pilot held was furloughed, and some pretty deep into the furloughed ranks. A 17 year pilot was either furloughed or at the very bottom of the east list.

Third, to compare, pre-merger, with Nic and then usapa's DOH proposal. The West pilot who was pre-merger #750/1884 (a line holding 320 captain) has a Nic number of 2124, and usapa number of 4267. All former active east pilots are moved well above him, plus hundreds of furloughed east pilots are above him. Some of which have as much as 6 years less LOS, because of all the time they spent furloughed. The only active pilots below him are the same 1100 former West pilots he had below him pre-merger, and it gets worse. Move 300 numbers junior to him and you have former West captains who would be furloughed in a 10% reduction, while former east furloughees with much less LOS would remain employed.

At best, usapa might get some of the top 300 former West pilots (who are nearing retirement) to go along with their DOH list, if it guarantees no east movement into the original 142 aircraft AWA brought to the merger (i.e. status protection, not domicile protection). But the other 1500 who get stapled under their furloughees, well, lets just say,,,,,,,

pass anything other than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe" DFR.

Nic, wait till you see the MDA situation become more and more clear. Your entire notion of who was "furloughed" is going to get some big attention.The list you use is no longer valid. Nicolau himself was given false and misleading testimony. We will see how that sits. USAPA - best money ever spent. Remember, only eat ripe fruit.

 

[usabusdriver]

The following, taken from the Transition Agreement, may shed some light on the issue of what the parties are entitled to do with respect to this agreement.

...

B. May be modified by written agreement of the Association and the Airline Parties collectively;

...

E. Will remain in effect in accordance with its terms until each of the provisions herein has been fulfilled, unless sooner terminated by

1. Written agreement of the Association and the Airline Parties collectively; or
2. Termination of the Merger Agreement;
3. At the discretion of the Association, failure of consummation of the Merger Agreement prior to October 31, 2005.


It would seem that the parties can modify or terminate the agreement.

Al,

Yes the parties can modify or terminate the agreement. The question is HAVE they? And if they have not, does the section covering the seniority integration process still apply?

 

[luvthe9]

Nic...

Just add this to the tsunami of opinions here… Let’s wait and see what USAPA comes up with… Let’s see if the “harm” the west pilots envision actually materialize… Only then will we have an inkling of what’s going to happen… If it places a truly furloughed East pilot above a line holding West Captain… then I would tend to agree with you. If not, well we’ll just have to wait and see…

One big assumption. Everybody is assuming the "snapshot " for the integration takes place at the same point where Nicolau had his picture. This is a big mistake. We have moved far forward. Look at where things sit now. Add in the MDA issue, and the possible pay for the East going WAY up with LOA 84 rates. Why do you assume we go back in time to the spot most advantageous for the West? If that is the case, then let's go even farther back in time. This is just not going to be the case.

 

[luvthe9]

I would also like to point out to the lurkers here that the west has still refrained from calling Judges Graber and Tashima derogatory names, or accused them of having some illegal conflict of interest reason for their opinion that is contrary to beliefs held by the West, Judges Wake and Bybee, arbitrator Nicolau, the company, ALPA, Senators McCaskill and Bond, the National College of Arbitrators, the American Arbitration Association, the Supreme Court of the United States, and most importantly a jury of 9 of our peers.

Make no mistake usapa,

Pass anything other than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe" DFR.

Yes, we will get sued. You did it before. We know what happened. We didn't waste money, you did. And we won the 9th. You paid. Thank you.

 

[nic4us]

Nic...

Just add this to the tsunami of opinions here… Let’s wait and see what USAPA comes up with… Let’s see if the “harm” the west pilots envision actually materialize… Only then will we have an inkling of what’s going to happen… If it places a truly furloughed East pilot above a line holding West Captain… then I would tend to agree with you. If not, well we’ll just have to wait and see…

Very rational post.

It seems to pick up on the 9th's sentiment in their ruling. Until we have a ratified CBA, how do we know what is in it? However, if past performance is any indication of future behavior, I simply do not see usapa having the ability, much less the desire, to represent West interest.

The Nic is not a simple suggestion of how we may want to integrate seniority. It is a concluded seniority integration arbitration, whose results were accepted by the company. usapa is obviously hostile to its implementation.

So we will wait and see what usapa comes up with, but whatever it is, it will be measured against the Nic. Simply no getting around that at this point.

 

[Richard]

Folks,

I just deleted a good number of posts and suspended some posters. You need to be reminded that you are NOT to make ANY remarks aimed at a specific individual or poster--if you want to communicate with another poster directly use PM.

Personal remarks, comments, insults and namecalling are SPECIFICALLY prohibited by the rules of the board....PLEASE remember that when posting.

Thank you.

 

[luvthe9]

Very rational post.

It seems to pick up on the 9th's sentiment in their ruling. Until we have a ratified CBA, how do we know what is in it? However, if past performance is any indication of future behavior, I simply do not see usapa having the ability, much less the desire, to represent West interest.

The Nic is not a simple suggestion of how we may want to integrate seniority. It is a concluded seniority integration arbitration, whose results were accepted by the company. usapa is obviously hostile to its implementation.

So we will wait and see what usapa comes up with, but whatever it is, it will be measured against the Nic. Simply no getting around that at this point.

The Nic is discriminatory to the East. It was an ALPA sanctioned integration. To use the Nic is to perpetuate the FORMER bargaining agent. We have moved to a new point in time. The ability of the West to pick an ARBITRARY point in time , one where the prior situation took place, simply will not meet the standard of FAIRNESS. How do you explain to a court your decision to go back 5 yrs. and use that point for an integration that has not even been revealed to you so far in 2010! Read Baptiste and Wilder again.

 

[Freighterguynow]

I would also like to point out to the lurkers here that the west has still refrained from calling Judges Graber and Tashima derogatory names, or accused them of having some illegal conflict of interest reason for their opinion that is contrary to beliefs held by the West, Judges Wake and Bybee, arbitrator Nicolau, the company, ALPA, Senators McCaskill and Bond, the National College of Arbitrators, the American Arbitration Association, the Supreme Court of the United States, and most importantly a jury of 9 of our peers.

Don't forget puppies and kittens !

Then again, maybe you need to get out more:

Steve Crimi is a dishonorable Scab. No wonder he's so in love with USAPA. They're a perfect fit. Just when I thought my opinion of USAPA couldn't get any lower here comes Steve SCABrimi to reset the all time low.

Is there ever going to be a point when East pilots decide to practice ANY form of personal integrity? Also, I don't give a ******************** what SCABrimi claims the reason for his termination is, it's probably a complete LIE. He accepted the job with the full knowledge that his behavior was totally undermining a real union. The fact that pilots like SCABrimi are involved at the executive level of USAPA is no shock, their official "spokesman" is a Continental SCAB too.


http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1993684#post1993684

 

[BoeingBoy]

The Nic is discriminatory to the East.

I think it's been clear since 2007 that that's the East's OPINION.

The ability of the West to pick an ARBITRARY point in time,,,

Nothing arbitrary about when the merger happened - one day there was two companies called US and HP and the next day there was LCC. If you want ARBITRARY, look at USAPA picking a date long after the merger for their earlier DOH proposal's C&R's - to the benefit of East.

 

[nic4us]

Nic, wait till you see the MDA situation become more and more clear. Your entire notion of who was "furloughed" is going to get some big attention.The list you use is no longer valid. Nicolau himself was given false and misleading testimony. We will see how that sits. USAPA - best money ever spent. Remember, only eat ripe fruit.

I am really starting to get suspicious.

You have stated you are in the top 300. Yet you seem to have a dog in the MDA fight. Oldie makes post implying he is probably around 48 years old, but talks like he has assumed the persona of a much more senior pilot. Some of the other ardent east posters keep throwing out misleading claims as to what their status was pre-merger, yet are overly knowledgeable of the status within the ranks of the east furloughs.

More level headed east posters like, nyc, underpants, gracho, pi-brat, piedmont, cubfan(hope he is doing well) et al, seem to have a philisophical difference of opinion, but really do not get overly distraught at the prospects of not being able to steal West jobs. They know they do not like the Nic, but really do not get overly emotional when confronted with its implementation.

So I will simply ask a straight forward question of the east posters.

I am still, and was at the time of the merger, and was for many years prior to that, a 320 captain. I was never furloughed, hold a decent line and get weekends off now and again. usapa would like to put over 1500 F/Os ahead of me, along with a couple hundred furloughees.

My question for the east posters is, was your east seniority below Colello's?