US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[oldiebutgoody]

That's a pretty evasive answer. Hopefully someone else might give it a real try for the sake of conversation.

I Don't know who put the bee in your bonnet, but ALPA ain't comin' back!

DOH is the WINNER!

ALPA SUX!

 

[767jetz]

Commuting on US from Richmond?

Sounds like you were tired of hearing the lecture. Why didn't you fiond other transportation. And I'll bet you never had the cojones to let the pilots know your true feelings that you express here. Well, maybe after block-in.

All hat; no cattle.

I'm so glad you brought that up! I did use other airlines. Trans States and several US Express operators.

On one particular commute I showed up in the cockpit before boarding to ask for a ride. All flights were running late with ground delay programs due to wx. SO I had some time to chat. First thing the captain said to me was not even hello. His EXACT words, while chuckling, were "OH! A United guy looking for a ride? Here, sign this piece of paper that says Date Of Hire!" I stared at him without a reaction. He said, "Oh you guys have no sense of humor." I responded by telling him I didn't think it was funny, and that DOH was not in the merger policy. He proceeded to tell me that it it will go DOH, it always goes DOH, and not to worry because he would "only" bid 767 captain on the west coast because that's where he's from. This, coming from what I later found out was a relatively junior 737 captain. We chatted a bit longer as I tried to make small talk and pretend this guy was not an J A.

Eventually, I politely thanked them for their time and told him I was going to find another way to NY. Picked up my bag, walked off the airplane without another word said. I ended up on express. But you should have seen the look on his face. It was priceless!

So don't talk to me about cajones my friend!

 

[e28]

So you now agree that ALPA wasn't free to unilaterally change/abandon the Nic. So when the 9th said what they did about ALPA's ability to change/abandon the Nic, that ability was nil. So you shift to a different argument. Here's a news flash - the "wide range of reasonableness" test applies to only one prong of the 3 prong test of DFR. Usapa can offer a seniority proposal within a wide range of reasonableness and still be guilty of violating it's DFR.

And them's the facts...

Jim

Jim..Jim...Jimmy-Jim. Did I say anywhere in my post that I agreed about any problems with ALPA getting off of or dumping the Nic? But since you asked, yes, I believe that ALPA could have EASILY read the Nic, handed it back to Nicolau, and said that this will not fly, never be ratified, and/or does not meet the windfall test. That'd be Prater who could do that....of course, that would mean actually taking a policy position when they had none.
I have shifted no such argument. ALPA National, after Wye River and the gridlock could have/should have handed the list to George instaed of Parker.
The rest is history....and academic.

USAPA is free to pursue it's goal of seniority integration and a ratified contract without any of the encumbering and lingering BS from this disaster.

THAT sir, is the fact.

 

[ROACLT]

So you now agree that ALPA wasn't free to unilaterally change/abandon the Nic. So when the 9th said what they did about ALPA's ability to change/abandon the Nic, that ability was nil. So you shift to a different argument. Here's a news flash - the "wide range of reasonableness" test applies to only one prong of the 3 prong test of DFR. Usapa can offer a seniority proposal within a wide range of reasonableness and still be guilty of violating it's DFR.

And them's the facts...

Jim

Sorry, but a DOH list, especially in light of the fact that the 9th clearly delineated USAPA's legal obligation was simply to bargain in "Good Faith" for all of its members will not trigger arbitrary or discriminatory behavior. You must not have read the transcripts from Wake's court, because even the plaintiff waived and ceded in the trial there was no ground to claim a breach of DFR on those issues. They only one they had a legitimate claim to was "Good Faith", and Wake wouldn't allow USAPA to defend against it, or even define it for the jurors as SCOTUS clearly has because he knew what a broad standard that is and what an uphill battle the plaintiffs would have. An uphill trudge that just got a lot harder. Not that any of Wake's findings matter, because as far as the legal world is concerned, Phoenix District Court never happened and the only thing that does matter is the legal precedent now embodied in the 9th's ruling.

And them's really the facts........

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Why would anyone hoot and holler about movement of less than 3% on average (except for the top AWA guys who got hosed).

And there's considerable difference between crying in their coffee and pulling the pin on a virtual hand grenade to labor for the pilots of US.

AWA pilots want a union that can accomplish more than suing its own members, a contract with some improvements and seniority integration to be behind us.

The last part evades me, I may be wrong but didn't the AOL group ie ADDINGTON sue its OWN UNION, well the seniority integration behind us part I'll buy that! MM! IF THEY WANT THAT TYPE OF UNION MAYBE THEY SHOULD QUIT SUEING IT!

 

[BoeingBoy]

I believe...

That says it all right there. "I believe" makes it opinion, no more valid than any other.

Jim

 

[Freighterguynow]

We chatted a bit longer as I tried to make small talk and pretend this guy was not an J A.


"We were hired not acquired" - remember that little zinger as a prelude to stapling the US Airways pilots to the bottom of the list?

You had your 10% as well.

 

[RSVP767]

I remember that well.......it did not set right at all with the majority of the East when Prater said the merger policy did not apply to the arbitrator.....

NICDOA
NPJB

Precisely! Thank you. I Remember that too.

Maybe if Nicolau had honored ALPA's merger policy we would have honored his Award and Opinion.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

That says it all right there. "I believe" makes it opinion, no more valid than any other.

Jim

Actually, there ARE opinions that count more than others. Ask the ninth.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Actually, there ARE opinions that count more than others. Ask the ninth.

I didn't know that the judges of the 9th posted here...maybe the Supremes will join in too.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Maybe if Nicolau had honored ALPA's merger policy we would have honored his Award and Opinion.

Technically, Prater was right - one of the risks of not negotiating a consensual solution - but if you had read the award you would know that Nic took care to explain how his decision complied with ALPA merger policy. The ever-popular view that he didn't is the result of not getting what you wanted and nothing else.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Technically, Prater was right - one of the risks of not negotiating a consensual solution - but if you had read the award you would know that Nic took care to explain how his decision complied with ALPA merger policy. The ever-popular view that he didn't is the result of not getting what you wanted and nothing else.

Jim

Nope. The fact that he didn't see that he was awarding a windfall just shows how out of touch with reality he was.

 

[RSVP767]

When you get your time machine fixed, let us know. We'd ALL like answers to that. I do know that even when the age rule was moved to 65 that most East F/Os would be captains for 5 or more years at the end of their careers. With nic, almost none would, even with some growth.

Oldie,

Luv ya man, & I agree with most of your posts and have enjoyed reading them all. But, I have to set this one straight.

All F/O's at US Airways....East & West (absent any growth....and we all know the odds of that).....will not get 5 more years in the left seat at the end of their careers. For the most part, they will get the same years in the left seat as they would have got under age 60, just 5 years later. What they do get is 5 more years in the right seat. Think about it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The fact that he didn't see that he was awarding a windfall

Windfall is in the eye of the beholder - an opinion, in other words. My opinion is that putting an East pilot who was furloughed at the time of the merger ahead of a West 757 Captain is a windfall.

Jim

 

[e28]

That says it all right there. "I believe" makes it opinion, no more valid than any other.

Jim

Don't ya like mine, Jimmy?

Maybe you'll like this opinion better...or not.

"It is, however,
at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated."
Do ya see the bold word "ever" there Jimmy? Know what that means? It means that Wake's "permanent injunction" (which creates gridlock and no contract for anybody)...you know, the one where he ordered that USAPA immediately get a contract wit the Nic in it?

This pretty much 86's that order...of course, it's only an opinion. The 9th's.