US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[oldiebutgoody]

So you're against the fragmentation policy in your contract?

Jim

What fragmentation? U bought the ENTIRE Shuttle. The Shuttle pilots had resigned their EAL positions (I've seen THAT letter myself) to stay at the Trump Shuttle. As it turned out, they got BETTER than their Trump DOH, but less than their EAL. Sort of a compromise. You remember what that is, don't you? The losers were the guys that supported ALPA and wound up on the street.

MECs should not have the option of screwing up a merger. If ours did then, it was only because ALPA had no real merger policy.

 

[e28]

Somebody tap Jim on the head, he's running (arguing) in circles again.....getting further and further off-point. Meanwhile, the usual suspect west pundits are NORDO.

 

[Barrister]

You know (well, maybe you don't), that unions have used some form of DOH formula for merging labor groups since their inception. ALPA is the first and only that I know of that did not even have it as part of the formula. That's why they failed miserably. It was the final straw leading to their ouster from the property. I understand it's back in their formula. Gee, go figure. My assumption for a REAL WORKABLE merger policy is that it would include DOH as part of the formula, as ALL successful ones in the past, in ALL industries have.

As far as DL-NW goes, I'm not so sure there is some ugliness coming yet. As for UAL-CAL, I don't even know if it's gonna get gov't approval. I'll also predict some ugliness there, as well. At least ALPA tried to fix the issue they had with our merger. It won't be enough.

I remember just after the NIC was released. A friend of mine wrote an email to Prater, asking him to make public the instructions that ALPA gave to the arbitrator. He was concerned about the "no windfall" provision of the ALPA policy, which was not adheared to. Prater refused, saying, basically, that while ALPA was to abide by the "no windfall" provisions in negotiations, the arbitrator was under no such constraint. What a crock.

ALPA SUX!

I remember that well.......it did not set right at all with the majority of the East when Prater said the merger policy did not apply to the arbitrator.....

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Somebody tap Jim on the head, he's running (arguing) in circles again.....getting further and further off-point. Meanwhile, the usual suspect west pundits are NORDO.

Probably visiting their lawyers. Or, maybe their lawyers just explained to them the reality of this situation and they can't stop crying.

 

[e28]

Jim says:

"You'll see how "free" ALPA was to abandon the Nic. As luvthe9 says, the answer is right there in front of everyone"

No doubt, he's referring to this:

"We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the
Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA."

Naturally, he (like nic4us) is reading content that isnt there. I submit that with all of the verboseness of the 22 page 9th decision, why wouldn't they? If it were as simple as the "final and binding" crowd insists, it wouldn't take 2 years and 2 million bones to say it. The 9th said a LOT of things they didn't have to in these 22 pages, things that were well outside the scope of the "ripeness" issue. They could EASILY have included 6 words for guidance. (The Niclolau is final and binding) They gave a lot of foreshadowing and insight into their decision...I didn't read those 6 little words anywhere.

Go back to chasing your tail.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim says:

Reading comprehension lacking or just selective quoting to suit your purposes? Go back and read that post of mine again. Maybe you'll get it this time...

Jim

 

[e28]

Yawn...

If you have decoded the secrets of life for the west, you should say so...for their sake.
Me? I'm just peachy with things.

 

[BoeingBoy]

What fragmentation? U bought the ENTIRE Shuttle.

Playing dumb doesn't become you Oldie. Trump bought part of EA - the Shuttle. That's called fragmentation and triggered the fragmentation protections in the EA contract. So there was a fragmentation. I suppose you too are against the fragmentation protections in your contract. Say the popular "East to AA, West to RAH" came to pass - you'd be content to be treated as a new hire at AA I suppose - it was good enough for the EA pilots who went with the Shuttle when it was sold to Trump so is certainly fair for you.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Playing dumb doesn't become you Oldie. Trump bought part of EA - the Shuttle. That's called fragmentation and triggered the fragmentation protections in the EA contract. So there was a fragmentation. I suppose you too are against the fragmentation protections in your contract. Say the popular "East to AA, West to RAH" came to pass - you'd be content to be treated as a new hire at AA I suppose - it was good enough for the EA pilots who went with the Shuttle when it was sold to Trump so is certainly fair for you.

Jim

Trump operated the Shuttle for YEARS before U got involved. In fact, EAL had been out of business for years, as well. Also, at the beginning, U only had a contract to operate the Shuttle. It didn't buy it for a while after that. The time for the fragmentation was when Trump operated it, and the CBA that should have made it happen was ALPA. Their MEC, not ours. Trying to make everthing suit your "I was entitled to the Allegheny guys' jobs, and everybody else should be slotted too" attitude is WRONG, and has been shown to be wrong over and over again.

As far as the AA, RAH thing goes, I would expect my union to prevent those bad things you talk about from happening. In the Trump case, and even worse, the TWA case afterward, ALPA just gave it all away. They didn't even have a good explanation or reason for it. It probably worked for some ALPA guy, or ALPA got some sort of cash for it.

BY the way, I NEVER said that the Trump guys should only get their "Trump Shuttle DOH", in fact, I've always thought that would be unfair. I was only agreeing that there was a serous conflict with the guys that quit EAL and were hired at U, but I don't know just what a fair solution would have been for them.

 

[luvn737s]

Can't say that about the NIC. One side crying in their coffee, the other side waiving their lottery tickets and hootin' and howlin'.

Why would anyone hoot and holler about movement of less than 3% on average (except for the top AWA guys who got hosed).

And there's considerable difference between crying in their coffee and pulling the pin on a virtual hand grenade to labor for the pilots of US.

AWA pilots want a union that can accomplish more than suing its own members, a contract with some improvements and seniority integration to be behind us.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Why would anyone hoot and holler about movement of less than 3% on average (except for the top AWA guys who got hosed).

I don't really know, except that it was a WINDFALL for them. I don't know what you mean by "hosed", but it must mean "to steal"

And there's considerable difference between crying in their coffee and pulling the pin on a virtual hand grenade to labor for the pilots of US.

A hand grenade, if you want to call it that, to defend the rights of union members and labor groups everywhere.

AWA pilots want a union that can accomplish more than suing its own members, a contract with some improvements and seniority integration to be behind us.

Suing people that commit criminal acts is the American way. Taking the law into one's own hands and attempting intimidation by mailing feces and jamming phone lines is inappropriate. The seniority integration issue is now on the proper track, finally.

 

[Freighterguynow]

I also think a big factor was that the shuttle only had a couple of hundred pilots, so it really didn't effect people's careers.

Not true Oldie, given Eastern DOH the Shuttle pilots would have been able to capture every single widebody Captain job at US Air. All their Captains, the First Officers and several Flight Engineers, all of them could take every one.

 

[nycbusdriver]

It's relatively easy for one to agree to be fenced into a base when that base has already and presumably will continue to get more of the new post merger flying.

Jim

I agree But that certainly puts a damper on the argument of who saved who. Presumably the healthier airline would see the increased flying (and increased profits.) The west wants it both ways: PHX saved the east, but now that it's headed down the tubes (at least to some degree,) we think we're entitled to your jobs on the east.

No thank you. You keep PHX, we'll keep PHL.

 

[Freighterguynow]

DOH wasn't so attractive in that merger since the EA guys could trace their DOH back to EA, so pay rate became the "gold standard" there. Now, DOH favors the East so has again become the "gold standard".

Jim

US Air didn't merge with Eastern - period.

Those Eastern employees resigned, went to work for Trump, Eastern failed - then several years later the Shuttle/ US Air merger started.

Since the Trump operation started literally overnight, the employee groups decided, among themselves, Eastern DOH would order the list at Shuttle.

You'll notice some newhire Flight Engineers did BETTER than DOH with the slotting by W2. I know, I'm junior to them ....

 

[nycbusdriver]

Then you live with your head in the sand. Nothing inflammatory, unless you consider the truth inflammatory. Had HUNDREDS of conversations on the topic on this board alone. Not to mention that at the time I was commuting from Richmond and used US frequently. Sat through the lecture more times than I want to count about OUR widebody flying, DOH, and aspirations of which of OUR domiciles on the west coast your guys wanted to bid into. (This coming from the old guys in the right seat of the 737-200 who were still on reserve.) Also heard first hand the "see you in arbitration" response to our suggestion of tall and long fences. Your group is littered with narcissistic hypocrites who always have a justification and someone else to blame. Interesting how your story always changes when the winds shift.

Commuting on US from Richmond?

Sounds like you were tired of hearing the lecture. Why didn't you fiond other transportation. And I'll bet you never had the cojones to let the pilots know your true feelings that you express here. Well, maybe after block-in.

All hat; no cattle.