US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[BoeingBoy]

Fences my boy, fences!!!! you have lost Nada

Apparently a popular notion in the east - say "fences" (or C&R's) and everything goes away. It'll be interesting to see if USAPA will offer any more protection in their proposed fences than they did in the first attempt, which were laughable.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Fences my boy, fences!!!! you have lost Nada

NIC DOA
NPJB

How does a fence, or any other condition and restriction, protect in the event of a future merger?

I will answere my own question for you, they do not, unless those C&Rs say, we use Nic seniority for future mergers, base reductions, transfers of flying, etc.

You are right about one thing, I have lost nada, until usapa gets any other seniority scheme passed in a ratified CBA. If they do, then I have lost something and sue.

I really love my new catch phrase given to me by the 9th, "unquestionably ripe DFR".

 

[nic4us]

Based on your comments, I'm calling in scared on my next trip.

NICDOA
NPJB

Well I am not, and it is time to take the passengers to their destination. Enjoy the day.

 

[cleardirect]

Fences my boy, fences!!!! you have lost Nada

NIC DOA
NPJB

With a fence how do we, all us airways pilots, share in any growth or new routes or equipment?

That has nothing to do with what each brought to the merger that is what happened because of the merger.

Ask the NWA pilots what they think of the 20 year fences.

 

[Freighterguynow]

I am sticking around for now, just because I do not want the lurking general public, OAL employees, and most imprtantly other LCC employees to think usapa has a snowballs chance in PHX to get anything other than the Nic incorporated into a CBA. I want to make sure the rest of the LCC employees know exactly who to blame for the continued standoff,

The East is better off under our current contract than with any conceivable industry standard one containing the Nic award. By refusing to negotiate you perpetuated the continued standoff and are, therefore, an equal party.

Don't forget to add that part.


On a further note, I see our indentical merger disfunctional twins Atlas/ Polar pilot groups have finally , after 6 years, come out of their corners, come to a compromise and is starting joint contract talks with the company.

 

[Freighterguynow]

With a fence how do we, all us airways pilots, share in any growth or new routes or equipment?

That has nothing to do with what each brought to the merger that is what happened because of the merger.

Ask the NWA pilots what they think of the 20 year fences.

What is the problem with your future being tied to the PHX hub just as it was prior to the merger? If PHX grows and prospers you benefit if not, you don't.

Same for the East in our hubs.

If growth occurs in PHL the West pilots take it for themselves yet when downsizing occurs in PHX it is an East pilot who is furloughed.

Who wants any part of that? Oh yea, the West does: "Heads I win - Tails you lose.

 

[cleardirect]

The East is better off under our current contract than with any conceivable industry standard one containing the Nic award. By refusing to negotiate you perpetuated the continued standoff and are, therefore, an equal party.

Don't forget to add that part.


On a further note, I see our indentical merger disfunctional twins Atlas/ Polar pilot groups have finally , after 6 years, come out of their corners, come to a compromise and is starting joint contract talks with the company.

Please name the west pilot with authority to negotiate or compromise or as you want give away anything in the Nicolau.

Who on the west has the ability to sign anything for all of the west pilots? Answer, no one. usapa took that ability when you forced us into usapa.
Let me remind you all one more time what Wilder said.

USAPA cannot do the one thing that must be done to safeguard the AAA pilots’ interests in the future—amend the Nicolau award.

So it is usapa that is perpetuating this stand off not the west.

Enjoy LOA 93 if that is all that you want for the rest of your career. Good for you. Until usapa and the east pilot come to the conclusion that the Nic is it and get to the rest of the 29 sections. That is the best that you can hope for.

 

[Phoenix]

With a fence how do we, all us airways pilots, share in any growth or new routes or equipment?

That has nothing to do with what each brought to the merger that is what happened because of the merger.

Ask the NWA pilots what they think of the 20 year fences.

The NWA pilots opinion... the 9th opinion... the Supreme Court opinion...

They all have their place.

 

[Phoenix]

The three very knowledgeable arbitrators from the DAL/NWA arbitration disagree with you. Read it carefully. ...

Did the 9th read it? Did the 9th cite it?

 

[cleardirect]

What is the problem with your future being tied to the PHX hub just as it was prior to the merger? If PHX grows and prospers you benefit if not, you don't.

Same for the East in our hubs.

If growth occurs in PHL the West pilots take it for themselves yet when downsizing occurs in PHX it is an East pilot who is furloughed.

Who wants any part of that? Oh yea, the West does: "Heads I win - Tails you lose.

Using that logic any original us air pilot should not be allowed in CLT. If you were PIT, LGA, BOS, SYR or any other base that has closed over the years. No job for you I guess.

If we merge with AA are you going to demand a fence around CLT,PHL and DCA too. No in or out. That is not what a merger is about. Because of a merger companies move assets around. If we had not merged this company would not have sent a ton of CORPORATE assets to PHL to clean up the pig sty. That is money that could have been used to grow PHX.

5 years have passed we are one company and the company decides where those assets go. Locking the west in PHX is not a merger. Would any of you accept being locked into your current base for the rest of your career? Why should we?

 

[Phoenix]

Yep, pretty much just me and Cleardirect, ...

Don't worry about being just two folks. You are doing a bang up job!

 

[e28]

Don't worry about being just two folks. You are doing a bang up job!

Long time lurker with two quick observations:

1) Here's a quote from page 8004 paragraph 2:

"Five months after certification, USAPA presented a seniority
proposal to the airline. The proposal incorporated date-ofhire
principles. Although the proposal contained some protections
for West Pilots, it was not nearly as favorable to West
Pilots as the Nicolau Award..."

(that should put an end to the West assertion of the Nic fairness, the math, the rhetoric...)

2) So-called legal pundits such as hp-fa have gone totally underground since this ruling....for over two years he/she has been very quick to proffer opinion on merits, outcomes, and probabilities...as has aquagreen73's....both currently NORDO.

that is all for now.

 

[nic4us]

What is the problem with your future being tied to the PHX hub just as it was prior to the merger? If PHX grows and prospers you benefit if not, you don't.

Same for the East in our hubs.

If growth occurs in PHL the West pilots take it for themselves yet when downsizing occurs in PHX it is an East pilot who is furloughed.

Who wants any part of that? Oh yea, the West does: "Heads I win - Tails you lose.

Late arriving inbound aircraft, time for just a few more.

The problem is prior to the merger my future was not tied to the PHX hub, or the LAS hub, or the CMH hub. Prior to the merger my future was tied to the success or failure of America West Airlines on whole, and my position and status within AWA (i.e. my seniority at AWA).

Our seniority was merged, along with our companies, and now my future should be tied to the success or failure of LCC. same for the former east pilots, in whatever hub.

If growth occurs in PHL, accompanied by downsizing in PHX, it is an LCC pilot that is furloughed. If growth occurrs in PHL and we open a base in FLL, those positions are filled with LCC pilots.

Bet your bottom dollar that is what the West wants, it is what the east wants also. However, the east wants first dibs on the growth and merger benefits ( of which they benefitted greater just because it even happened), while blocking the West from recieving even the 1/3 portion we more than deserve.

 

[e28]

"It is, however, at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated..."

(-9th ruling page 8007 paragraph 7)

They didn't have to verbalize all of this...particularly the bold text. In fact, if the 9th believed that the Nic was inviolate and must be used going forward, this was their chance to say just that...

-thats not what the 9th said.

that is all for now

 

[Phoenix]

Long time lurker with two quick observations:

1) Here's a quote from page 8004 paragraph 2:

"Five months after certification, USAPA presented a seniority
proposal to the airline. The proposal incorporated date-ofhire
principles. Although the proposal contained some protections
for West Pilots, it was not nearly as favorable to West
Pilots as the Nicolau Award..."

(that should put an end to the West assertion of the Nic fairness, the math, the rhetoric...)

2) So-called legal pundits such as hp-fa have gone totally underground since this ruling....for over two years he/she has been very quick to proffer opinion on merits, outcomes, and probabilities...as has aquagreen73's....both currently NORDO.

that is all for now.

"not nearly as Favorable to West pilots"... Priceless.

"By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members — both East and West — in mind..."

And "NORDO".... love the lingo. Point well taken.