US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[luvthe9]

It certainly can be if it is used because it favors one side over another - a pattern that certainly describes the East position. To quote you, "and are much older". Where is age a factor in DOH? I was, and I suspect you are, junior to some that are older and senior to others that are older. But age (or the corresponding time to mandatory retirement) is often mentioned by the East as a factor in the "fairness' of an integration method.

Yes indeed, the East pattern is picking a standard that favors themselves - thus a standard that is discriminatory.

Jim

Let's re write the 9th to suit us. The ALPA way. You don't have a clue to the position of USAPA.

 

[nic4us]

No,really. It's over. No NIC. You need to watch this video I saw that sort of explains the legal system in the US. I believe it was called "SCHOOLHOUSE ROCK". I thnik I saw it when I was 7 or 8...

Hey Oldie,

First, far from over, pass anything other than Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe" DFR.

But I really would like to point out that if you first saw SCHOOLHOUSE ROCK when you were 7 or 8, you are neither very Oldie, and I am starting to think not much Goody either.

You keep mentioning 17 year guys. Are you one of those furloughed east pilots who is trying to steal a West job? Are you one of those usapa supporters who wants to abandon the arbitrated seniority award, soley to favor east pilots at the expense of the West pilots. Up until now I was thinking you actually had some seniority around here, like Luvthe9 or Nycbusdriver, but now I think I know better.

KAAPPOOOW!!!!, "an interjection starts a sentence right".

"Conjunction junction, whats your function?" hooking up usapa to DFR lawsuit.

 

[Barrister]

It certainly can be if it is used because it favors one side over another - a pattern that certainly describes the East position. To quote you, "and are much older". Where is age a factor in DOH? I was, and I suspect you are, junior to some that are older and senior to others that are older. But age (or the corresponding time to mandatory retirement) is often mentioned by the East as a factor in the "fairness' of an integration method.

Yes indeed, the East pattern is picking a standard that favors themselves - thus a standard that is discriminatory.

Jim

DOH is related to age....by definition, when spread out over the ENTIRE LIST. Age will in in
fact play a role when it is shown that a seniority DOH system is fair by definition because
some will be hurt SHORT TERM....get it....the West will inherit the list....they just won't do it
RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!Your argument sounds like this....The West is dicriminated aginst because
the guy with 8 years won't be a Captain now for another 10 because the NIC is not used
therefore he is damaged....what about the guy who WILL NEVER fly as Captain BECAUSE
NIC list prevents it....and that guy already has been here longer 12 years longer than the
8 year West guy....DUDE someone here is gonna lose. They both cannot win. So pick your
lawyer of choice and lets get on with it. Wonder how George is doing now that he knows he
royally screwed this one up. Coulda brought this whole company down!! May still.

NIC DOA
NPJB

 

[cleardirect]

There comes a time when you have to stop looking at groups and start looking at people. Why should a guy that worked 17 years get furloughed before a guy that was here 6 months? I'll tell you when. NEVER!

The three very knowledgeable arbitrators from the DAL/NWA arbitration disagree with you. Read it carefully. It also applies to our situation.

On the one hand, dealing with the future prospects of anything in the airline
industry is nothing short of reading tea leaves or, to cite a far more daunting venture,
predicting fuel prices. On the other hand, those sorts of assessments are the stuff of
which “career expectations” are made. Therefore, it is appropriate that one examine
possibilities and potentials to whatever extent is reasonable, in the course of
constructing a merged seniority list that is fair and equitable. A brief comment on that
merger standard is in order. By employing concepts of both fairness and equity, the
drafters of the ALPA Merger Policy recognized a dual standard that should serve to
inform the judgment of those constructing a merged list. An integrated list that
responds solely to statistical absolutes (for example), with no broader view of the short and long-term impact on career expectations, might be considered nominally fair but
realistically inequitable. Too, a process that ignores reality and bypasses facts, that
pursues, instead, an illusory notion of “something for everyone,” could hardly be fair. In
constructing this list, we have inquired as to where the respective groups8 have been and
we have made reasoned judgments as to where they were going. We have attempted, at
all times, to recognize reasonable expectations of both parties while, in all instances,
rejecting proposals that, however facially logical, resulted in untenable windfalls.
The resulting list neither realizes nor maintains each and every career
expectations, nor could it do so. No recitation of career expectations ever includes a
merger, and no merger can leave all hopes and plans unaffected. The most that can be
said, and it can be said with some assurance in this case, is that the merger of these


8 As in all such exercises, the focus here is necessarily on groups, not on any individual pilot. Inevitably,
and unavoidably, there will be perceived disparities and mismatches on individual levels, on both sides,
under the merged list.

The Pilots of Northwest Airlines, Inc.
and The Pilots of Delta Air Lines, Inc.
Page 16 of 32
particular companies will result in a uniquely powerful entity, by virtue of the
contributions of both carriers, that is capable of better withstanding the substantial
challenges of the current environment than if the Companies had chosen to go it alone.

So that kind of puts to bed the east argument that airline economics are never used in a merger. The arbitrator looked at where NEW and DAL where at the time of the merger. They also explained that a merger is never included when talking about "career expectations" So that whole "I was going to be number one on the list" is a dead argument.

There was nothing unusual about this merger but two things. No airline has ever been in such poor shape as to have 17 year furloughed pilots. Second no merger has ever had to deal with a group of pilots that refuse to abide by their word. That has thrown a temper tantrum like the east pilots.

Stick with the Nic it will keep you safe.

 

[luvthe9]

Hey Oldie,

First, far from over, pass anything other than Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe" DFR.

But I really would like to point out that if you first saw SCHOOLHOUSE ROCK when you were 7 or 8, you are neither very Oldie, and I am starting to think not much Goody either.

You keep mentioning 17 year guys. Are you one of those furloughed east pilots who is trying to steal a West job? Are you one of those usapa supporters who wants to abandon the arbitrated seniority award, soley to favor east pilots at the expense of the West pilots. Up until now I was thinking you actually had some seniority around here, like Luvthe9 or Nycbusdriver, but now I think I know better.

KAAPPOOOW!!!!, "an interjection starts a sentence right".

"Conjunction junction, whats your function?" hooking up usapa to DFR lawsuit.

Bring it on Nic! By the way, seeing fewer and fewer Cactus Pilot badge backers. Looks like the frontline troops are going to ground.

 

[luvthe9]

Seeing fewer and fewer West posters here also. The rest got the idea of what went down. The rest are like the ghost soldiers of WW2. The guys who were still fighting the war, 30yrs later on the remote Pacific atolls all by themselves.

 

[nic4us]

And when you go up to the head of the line, and the other patrons object, do you call them snakes and sue them too?

Ever been to a fine scarfing establishment, and waited in line, reached the hostess and had your name taken and put in line with all the other customers, then sat in the bar waiting for your name to be called? Meanwhile, another party arrives and the hostess seats them immediately. You go and ask the hostess, why did they get to be seated when all these other patrons are waiting?

The reply.....They had a reservation.

Straight up luvthe 9. Your support of your fellow east pilots is actually and admirable position to take, so long as it does not harm the West in your actions of doing so, and by abandoning the arbitrated award in favor of a unilaterally imposed seniority scheme, usapa is unquestionably harming the West.

 

[BoeingBoy]

DOH is related to age....by definition, when spread out over the ENTIRE LIST. Age will in in
fact play a role when it is shown that a seniority DOH system is fair by definition because
some will be hurt SHORT TERM....get it....the West will inherit the list....they just won't do it
RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!Your argument sounds like this....The West is dicriminated aginst because
the guy with 8 years won't be a Captain now for another 10 because the NIC is not used
therefore he is damaged....what about the guy who WILL NEVER fly as Captain BECAUSE
NIC list prevents it....and that guy already has been here longer 12 years longer than the
8 year West guy....DUDE someone here is gonna lose. They both cannot win. So pick your
lawyer of choice and lets get on with it. Wonder how George is doing now that he knows he
royally screwed this one up. Coulda brought this whole company down!! May still.

I see a lot of opinion but little else, an opinion that favors your side (and undoubtedly you) over the other.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

You don't have a clue to the position of USAPA.

Possibly not - USAPA could have been misleading everyone about their intentions prior and after being elected as the CBA, even when putting those intentions in their C&B/L's and expressing those intentions in the DOH list the NAC put on the table.

Like our old friend who hasn't been around in a while often said, when someone tells you what their intentions are believe them. USAPA has expressed their intentions in many ways and words - why should I not believe them?

Jim

 

[nic4us]

DOH is related to age....by definition, when spread out over the ENTIRE LIST. Age will in in
fact play a role when it is shown that a seniority DOH system is fair by definition because
some will be hurt SHORT TERM....get it....the West will inherit the list....they just won't do it
RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!Your argument sounds like this....The West is dicriminated aginst because
the guy with 8 years won't be a Captain now for another 10 because the NIC is not used
therefore he is damaged....what about the guy who WILL NEVER fly as Captain BECAUSE
NIC list prevents it....and that guy already has been here longer 12 years longer than the
8 year West guy....DUDE someone here is gonna lose. They both cannot win. So pick your
lawyer of choice and lets get on with it. Wonder how George is doing now that he knows he
royally screwed this one up. Coulda brought this whole company down!! May still.

NIC DOA
NPJB

No actually the West argument goes something more like this.

100% of all west pilots will be disadvanaged and never be able to gain any of the significant improvements this merger brought to the entire pilot group, and over 80% of the West pilot group would suffer extreme and undue harm by losing all standing they had prior to the merger, so that very standing and status could directly be given to an east pilot.

I am sure Nicolau is doing fine. He can live with a clear conscience, even if LCC were to be brought down. It would not be his decision that brought the airline down, it would be the east pilots who refused to live with it. There was no way Mr. Nicolau could have predicted that the east pilot group would not only renege on their contractual obligations to honor his decision, but would go even farther and start a new union that would break its duty of fair representation, thereby sealing its fate.

 

[luvthe9]

No actually the West argument goes something more like this.

100% of all west pilots will be disadvanaged and never be able to gain any of the significant improvements this merger brought to the entire pilot group, and over 80% of the West pilot group would suffer extreme and undue harm by losing all standing they had prior to the merger, so that very standing and status could directly be given to an east pilot.

I am sure Nicolau is doing fine. He can live with a clear conscience, even if LCC were to be brought down. It would not be his decision that brought the airline down, it would be the east pilots who refused to live with it. There was no way Mr. Nicolau could have predicted that the east pilot group would not only renege on their contractual obligations to honor his decision, but would go even farther and start a new union that would break its duty of fair representation, thereby sealing its fate.

A question for you, regarding the contract, if we ever get one. What is the plan regarding the disadvantage already sitting in the contract of the hourly wage of narrowbody rates being some 20 dollars per hr. different. How do you bring the East up to a point that is considered an acceptable level to the West? And I can see the company offsetting this by offering a smaller raise to the widebody people. Then how do you get that group to buy off on this? Will they not be damaged by having to subsidize the others?

 

[nic4us]

Seeing fewer and fewer West posters here also.

Yep, pretty much just me and Cleardirect, with the occasional imput from a few others.

I had to wait 2 days after the 9ths ruling to get a word in edgewise, and then all I said was I better wait another day, because you guys were not going to like what the 9th actually said. well, you do not and you have spent a week, 1100 posts, and 120 pages of bandwith rationalizing more into the 9ths ruling than is actually there.

Make no mistake however, the West has not thrown its hand up because of this ruling. But, for the majority of west posters here, you east guys are no longer worth engaging in this format.

I am sticking around for now, just because I do not want the lurking general public, OAL employees, and most imprtantly other LCC employees to think usapa has a snowballs chance in PHX to get anything other than the Nic incorporated into a CBA. I want to make sure the rest of the LCC employees know exactly who to blame for the continued standoff, and have the truth when east posters throw out these lies like, the West started this, or the West sued first, etc.

 

[Barrister]

No actually the West argument goes something more like this.

100% of all west pilots will be disadvanaged and never be able to gain any of the significant improvements this merger brought to the entire pilot group, and over 80% of the West pilot group would suffer extreme and undue harm by losing all standing they had prior to the merger, so that very standing and status could directly be given to an east pilot.

I am sure Nicolau is doing fine. He can live with a clear conscience, even if LCC were to be brought down. It would not be his decision that brought the airline down, it would be the east pilots who refused to live with it. There was no way Mr. Nicolau could have predicted that the east pilot group would not only renege on their contractual obligations to honor his decision, but would go even farther and start a new union that would break its duty of fair representation, thereby sealing its fate.

Fences my boy, fences!!!! you have lost Nada

NIC DOA
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

Yep, pretty much just me and Cleardirect, with the occasional imput from a few others.

I had to wait 2 days after the 9ths ruling to get a word in edgewise, and then all I said was I better wait another day, because you guys were not going to like what the 9th actually said. well, you do not and you have spent a week, 1100 posts, and 120 pages of bandwith rationalizing more into the 9ths ruling than is actually there.

Make no mistake however, the West has not thrown its hand up because of this ruling. But, for the majority of west posters here, you east guys are no longer worth engaging in this format.

I am sticking around for now, just because I do not want the lurking general public, OAL employees, and most imprtantly other LCC employees to think usapa has a snowballs chance in PHX to get anything other than the Nic incorporated into a CBA. I want to make sure the rest of the LCC employees know exactly who to blame for the continued standoff, and have the truth when east posters throw out these lies like, the West started this, or the West sued first, etc.

Based on your comments, I'm calling in scared on my next trip.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[nic4us]

A question for you, regarding the contract, if we ever get one. What is the plan regarding the disadvantage already sitting in the contract of the hourly wage of narrowbody rates being some 20 dollars per hr. different. How do you bring the East up to a point that is considered an acceptable level to the West? And I can see the company offsetting this by offering a smaller raise to the widebody people. Then how do you get that group to buy off on this? Will they not be damaged by having to subsidize the others?

I am not sure I understand your question.

Are you saying that because east narrowbody improvements could be the greatest % gain, that east widebody pilots would have an arguement that since they did not get as big a % gain there would be a problem?

Well the solution would be, if we were a unified pilot group, we could secure a narrowbody pay rate that was acceptable to everyone or at least a large majority, and at the same time get a widebody rate that was comenserate with industry standard. While we were at it we could improve the 190 rates, get the east immediate parity on vacation, get PBS to function so it better suits our needs, get the furloughs back, and move everybody forward.