US Pilot Labor Thread 10/27-11/2

[Phoenix]

But I do miss the ALPA magazine. Do you think USAPA will have one some day?

Just as soon as they need a means to tell you how the BPR voted on issues that were too complicated for membership ratification. Like maybe a pension vote

 

[Megasnoop]

Mitch, you will be on the street soon, if you want a picture of your buddy john with his hand in your wallet, click here.

Nostro, saving those old pictures. Have you no shame? (LOL) Isnt that our own Jack Stephan standing next to mitch? And now theyre personally suing Jack? Where do we get guys like this? Still wonder the kind of politics out west where an immature 3rd year FO got elected MEC vice-chair. From the list, it looks like he gets whacked in the next round of furloughs. Funny, but mitch has to rely on USAPAs 2 TA disputes and USAPA negotiating no more furloughs to keep his job. bye,bye, mitch. enjoying a beautiful AM after another pond-crossing and with to much time on my hands. did someone change the clocks? the snuper

 

[nycbusdriver]

Well, well, well! Oldie I believe that you are finally coming around. Finally beginning to realize that DOH is unworkable and unfair.

Obliviously you have changed your mind about DOH. Because currently USAPA has a merger policy. It was created and published in the C&BL. DOH.

What would you suggest as a model for the industry?

Well, yes. USAPA does have a merger policy, and all mergers that are consummated under USAPA guidance will be DOH. There are two pilot seniority lists in front of them now. There are no Empire/Piedmonts lists (they vanished in 1987.) There are no USAir/PSA lists (they vanished in 1988.) There are no Piedmont/USAir lists (they vanished in 1989.) There are no TRUMP Shuttle/USAirways lists (they vanished in 1999.)

USAPA has simply taken tha position that they will deal with what is in front of them. They are under no obligation to revisit history. It's a MERGER policy, and the only MERGER that they have before them is USAirways and America West.

I just cannot fathom how otherwise intelligent people can't figure that out.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

I wouldn't count on Oldie having changed his position....

And Oldie,

It occurs to me that when you said that parts of the TA didn't apply, what you really meant was that they had already been completed. If that's correct, I agree with you - "the Parties" may no longer exist since the corporate merger is complete but there are sections that still use that terminology that aren't complete so still apply. It's all context driven and the use of the terminology must be read in context to determine if a given subsection is still in force or not.

In general, the TA is still in force although some of the terminology has been surpassed by events. I honestly believe that no one on either side of the negotiating table thought that integration wouldn't be complete 3 years after the TA was negotiated and signed. Just look at the section that covers the single op certificate - it's obvious that both sides thought that obtaining a singel cert. could take longer than the other stuff.

Jim

Man, you need to get a life! Is there a Mrs Jim? Why don't you take her out more often? You seem to be the know-it-all on this forum. Note I said "seem". "I could be wrong." <---------There, I sound just like you! Heaven forbid.

 

[tazz]

Man, you need to get a life! Is there a Mrs Jim? Why don't you take her out more often? You seem to be the know-it-all on this forum. Note I said "seem". "I could be wrong." <---------There, I sound just like you! Heaven forbid.

It cracks me up how nervous you east guys get when someone on this board actually makes sense.

 

[pilot]

You all really need to relax and stop the bickering and posturing and attempting to show each other how smart you all are. The insults are boring. The self importance is boring. The "expertise" is nothing but opinion.

A judge is going to rule on all this crap sooner or later and nothing stated here will have any bearing on what his ruling will be.

Having said that I continue to be truly amazed by both sides and the child like arguing among professional aviators.

The only thing I can say for certain is that the very entity that should have had this profession on the same page to protect its members has created such animosity among the profession that is is helping to destroy it.

Nothing written in these posts does anything to help maintain and improve the profession. Only divide it and drive it downward. ALPA is to blame. Selfishness is to blame. Individualism is to blame. But in reality we are all to blame because we don't care about our fellow pilot, only the one who watches us brush our teeth each morning.

That is far from what Behncke and Sayen had in mind all those years ago. They are spinning in their graves.

And sadly half of the guys who read that last sentence have no idea who those two fellows are.


pilot

 

[nic4us]

Well, yes. USAPA does have a merger policy, and all mergers that are consummated under USAPA guidance will be DOH. There are two pilot seniority lists in front of them now. There are no Empire/Piedmonts lists (they vanished in 1987.) There are no USAir/PSA lists (they vanished in 1988.) There are no Piedmont/USAir lists (they vanished in 1989.) There are no TRUMP Shuttle/USAirways lists (they vanished in 1999.)

USAPA has simply taken tha position that they will deal with what is in front of them. They are under no obligation to revisit history. It's a MERGER policy, and the only MERGER that they have before them is USAirways and America West.

I just cannot fathom how otherwise intelligent people can't figure that out.

busdriver

Otherwise intelligent people have figured out exactly what USAPA is about.

Future mergers would be consummated under negotiation-arbitration, not Imposed DOH. The HP/AAA merger is not in front of USAPA but behind it. NIC preceded USAPA, the merger preceded USAPA. There are not two seniority list in front of USAPA, only one and that is what all the fuss is about. If there are no PSA/USAir -Piedmont/USAIR list, there is also no HP/AAA list. Just one list that is the entire reason for USAPA's existence in the first place.

USAPA was founded on the illegal premise of the tyrany of the majority to negate a contractually arrived upon seniority integration. Now their underhanded founding principle of reneging is simply coming home to roost.

Integrity matters, I just cannot fathom how otherwise upstanding people can't figure that out.

 

[Piedmont1984]

busdriver


Future mergers would be consummated under negotiation-arbitration, not Imposed DOH. The HP/AAA merger is not in front of USAPA but behind it. NIC preceded USAPA, the merger preceded USAPA. There are not two seniority list in front of USAPA, only one and that is what all the fuss is about. If there are no PSA/USAir -Piedmont/USAIR list, there is also no HP/AAA list. Just one list that is the entire reason for USAPA's existence in the first place.

USAPA was founded on the illegal premise of the tyrany of the majority to negate a contractually arrived upon seniority integration. Now their underhanded founding principle of reneging is simply coming home to roost.

The most recent and significant event to take place in this imbroglio was the election. And when it comes to elections, it is the most recent one which usually has the most impact on events and policies going forward - not preceding elections or events.

You're pretending the election never took place and that it will have no impact on the Nic award which preceded it. You claim that a majority vote is invalid because it constitutes a tyranny.

Let's just wait and see what the court decides. How does the west spell integrity? - N i c o l a u.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

It cracks me up how nervous you east guys get when someone on this board actually makes sense.

You just called me a guy. :down: And a nervous one at that. INMHO Jim has sided with the West and was a big man in ALPA before he retired. Be careful who you call a nervous guy from the East. h34r: You just might be wrong on all counts.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

You all really need to relax and stop the bickering and posturing and attempting to show each other how smart you all are. The insults are boring. The self importance is boring. The "expertise" is nothing but opinion.

A judge is going to rule on all this crap sooner or later and nothing stated here will have any bearing on what his ruling will be.

Having said that I continue to be truly amazed by both sides and the child like arguing among professional aviators.

The only thing I can say for certain is that the very entity that should have had this profession on the same page to protect its members has created such animosity among the profession that is is helping to destroy it.

Nothing written in these posts does anything to help maintain and improve the profession. Only divide it and drive it downward. ALPA is to blame. Selfishness is to blame. Individualism is to blame. But in reality we are all to blame because we don't care about our fellow pilot, only the one who watches us brush our teeth each morning.

That is far from what Behncke and Sayen had in mind all those years ago. They are spinning in their graves.

And sadly half of the guys who read that last sentence have no idea who those two fellows are.


pilot

HERE HERE! I raise my glass to you! Yours is the most cogent post I've read here in quite some time.

 

[nic4us]

Piedmont1984,

Imbroglio? okay I admit it I had to look it up.

I am fully aware that the election took place. I do not claim a majority vote is invalid because it constitutes a tyrany. I claim it is illegal, because it is discrimintory and harmful to a minority group of which a union has a duty of fair representation. Also, just because we took a vote does not mean we get to ignore contractual obligations.

Busdriver said "all mergers that are consummated under USAPA guidance will be DOH." I was pointing out that this merger happened before USAPA came to be, and any future merger is not subject to USAPA's desire but federal law, therefore , most likely none(especially this one) will go DOH.

The West spelling perhaps leaves something to be desired, as does my own.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Piedmont1984,

Imbroglio? okay I admit it I had to look it up.

I am fully aware that the election took place. I do not claim a majority vote is invalid because it constitutes a tyrany. I claim it is illegal, because it is discrimintory and harmful to a minority group of which a union has a duty of fair representation. Also, just because we took a vote does not mean we get to ignore contractual obligations.

Busdriver said "all mergers that are consummated under USAPA guidance will be DOH." I was pointing out that this merger happened before USAPA came to be, and any future merger is not subject to USAPA's desire but federal law, therefore , most likely none(especially this one) will go DOH.

The West spelling perhaps leaves something to be desired, as does my own.

The merger has not been consummated yet. Last time I checked, the east and west are operating under separate contracts where they are not getting equal pay for equal work. (Don't gloat to me, though, about your superior pay rates. I still make more per hour than anyone on the west list and have since AWA turned it's first Dash-8 propeller. when I was already a 737 captain here.)

 

[BoeingBoy]

INMHO Jim has sided with the West and was a big man in ALPA before he retired.

It undoubtedly seems like I side with the West, but in reality I basically agree with the way the Nic award was constructed. That just happens to also be part of the West's position. If the West was arguing for something completely different from Nic I'd disagree with them too.

As for ALPA, I did volunteer work on the bid closing committee - which doesn't exist under USAPA (something I see as a mistake that hopefully will be corrected). I was in the ALPA offices at most 2 times per bid closing that I attended since the bid closings were done at RIDC, and then just to pick up or drop off something. I guess determining whether that constitutes being "a big man in ALPA" is a decision each has to make - hopefully consistent with whether USAPA committee members are viewed as "big men in USAPA."

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

The merger has not been consummated yet.

Splitting hairs I know, but technically the merger has been consummated - in Sept 2005. It's the integration of two workgroups that hasn't been completed yet - the pilots and F/As (someone correct me if there any other workgroup that hasn't been integrated).

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

Nothing written in these posts does anything to help maintain and improve the profession. Only divide it and drive it downward. ALPA is to blame. Selfishness is to blame. Individualism is to blame. But in reality we are all to blame because we don't care about our fellow pilot, only the one who watches us brush our teeth each morning.


pilot

Well said, but at the risk of sounding self serving, the reason I am engaged in this food fight is precisely for the benefit of my fellow pilot. Although I took a hit from the Nic - it was not irreparable.

And until we are truly and finally one pilot group - same pay, same agenda, same goals - my fellow pilot is an east pilot.