US Pilot Labor Thread 10/27-11/2

[Piedmont1984]

Splitting hairs I know, but technically the merger has been consummated - in Sept 2005. It's the integration of two workgroups that hasn't been completed yet - the pilots and F/As (someone correct me if there any other workgroup that hasn't been integrated).

Jim

Quite often, the devil is in the split hairs.

 

[BoeingBoy]

LOL - so true...

Jim

 

[trunion]

It undoubtedly seems like I side with the West, but in reality I basically agree with the way the Nic award was constructed. That just happens to also be part of the West's position. If the West was arguing for something completely different from Nic I'd disagree with them too.

As for ALPA, I did volunteer work on the bid closing committee - which doesn't exist under USAPA (something I see as a mistake that hopefully will be corrected). I was in the ALPA offices at most 2 times per bid closing that I attended since the bid closings were done at RIDC, and then just to pick up or drop off something. I guess determining whether that constitutes being "a big man in ALPA" is a decision each has to make - hopefully consistent with whether USAPA committee members are viewed as "big men in USAPA."

Jim

Jim, your information about the bid closing is innacurate.

Bid closing is a function of the USAPA Scheduling Committee.

 

[nic4us]

The merger has not been consummated yet. Last time I checked, the east and west are operating under separate contracts where they are not getting equal pay for equal work. (Don't gloat to me, though, about your superior pay rates. I still make more per hour than anyone on the west list and have since AWA turned it's first Dash-8 propeller. when I was already a 737 captain here.)

I would never gloat, rejoice or revel in an unfair practice among the pilot group. However, by your own admission, you make more than anyone on the west, so we indeed are not getting equal pay for equal work.

Or are you refering to the fact that an east 737 pilot makes less than a west 737 pilot because the east disregarded another of their contractual obligations to negotiate in good faith and waked out of joint negotiations?

Also, I believe you meant to say when I was a 737 captain at my last airline as opposed to "here". I am assuming you fly the 330 and never flew the 737 "here" at LCC.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim, your information about the bid closing is innacurate.

Bid closing is a function of the USAPA Scheduling Committee.

Thanks for the correction (I assume that we're both talking about the permanent bid closing and not monthly bid closing) - glad it's still being handled. It was always a pretty low cost (per diem and hotel room for out of town members when needed) way for the union to monitor the bid award process and minimize the number of pilots who shot themselves in the food by bidding improperly.

Jim

 

[trunion]

Thanks for the correction (I assume that we're both talking about the permanent bid closing and not monthly bid closing) - glad it's still being handled. It was always a pretty low cost (per diem and hotel room for out of town members when needed) way for the union to monitor the bid award process and minimize the number of pilots who shot themselves in the food by bidding improperly.

Jim

Both permanent and monthly bids are being handled

 

[nycbusdriver]

I would never gloat, rejoice or revel in an unfair practice among the pilot group. However, by your own admission, you make more than anyone on the west, so we indeed are not getting equal pay for equal work.

Or are you refering to the fact that an east 737 pilot makes less than a west 737 pilot because the east disregarded another of their contractual obligations to negotiate in good faith and waked out of joint negotiations?

Also, I believe you meant to say when I was a 737 captain at my last airline as opposed to "here". I am assuming you fly the 330 and never flew the 737 "here" at LCC.

I appreciate that you don't gloat. I wish I could say the same for all your west colleagues who post here. I simply said what I did to deflect what is usually the inevitable gloat.

And, as far as a west pilot getting equal pay for equal work in comparison to me, I somehow missed seeing those PHX and LAS transatlantic trip pairings.

I flew the 737 here, at USAir and -ways, for many years. Too many to think about. I am amazed that I have any hearing left considering the time in the -200.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

The merger has not been consummated yet. Last time I checked, the east and west are operating under separate contracts where they are not getting equal pay for equal work. (Don't gloat to me, though, about your superior pay rates. I still make more per hour than anyone on the west list and have since AWA turned it's first Dash-8 propeller. when I was already a 737 captain here.)

nbd -

You seem to be inferring, somewhat condescendlingly, that AWA began flying with Dash-8 equipment. Actually the airline started with a handful of used 737-200's acquired from Pacific Western Airlines. The Dashes came along a few years later. Not that this makes a hill of beans.

By the way - did you know Al Sheldon before he retired? Great guy, as I recall.

 

[nycbusdriver]

nbd -

You seem to be inferring, somewhat condescendlingly, that AWA began flying with Dash-8 equipment. Actually the airline started with a handful of used 737-200's acquired from Pacific Western Airlines. The Dashes came along a few years later. Not that this makes a hill of beans.

By the way - did you know Al Sheldon before he retired? Great guy, as I recall.

Never heard of Al Sheldon.

 

[sharktooth]

Never heard of Al Sheldon.

Aside from that, and, likely I misunderstood, but, did not the Empire pilots gain some sort of PI retirement, a sort of trading seniority for retirement, unlike with the Shuttle dudes, with respect to the US retirement, who started from integration date? (Notwithstanding the thought out there that the biggest boosters - GJ comes to mind - to terminate the US retirement were former Shuttle dudes -- gaining themselves the PBGC, gaining (full) access to a plan they, at best, would only have had limited access to)

If they were to realign the lists, would the Empire dudes be forced to give back their retirement? If the Shuttle dudes got their Eastern DOH, would I be able to regain mine? After all, they did sign away their Eastern seniority, did they not? What would that do to past furloughs? What would one do with former EAL people who would be blockholding Captains instead of being furloughed?

BTW, a court filing in the early 90's about that same thing (Empire) was dismissed because of a statute of limitations kind of thing.

This sounds to me like a few ALPA deadenders are going out of their way to try to create issues they can use to "leverage" themselves into a cushy job again. Why would I not be surprised?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Never heard of Al Sheldon.

Wasn't he chief pilot in PIT, like 20 years ago?

 

[givenup]

Wasn't he chief pilot in PIT, like 20 years ago?

Al retired from the 767 training dept. as number 1 on the sen list in about 2003 after 38 years. One number sen to me, coming from Piedmont I guess DOH hurt me, just think it cost me one number from what I would have had. I went from #72 to 470 something, but back all the way where I should ended up anyway.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Wasn't he chief pilot in PIT, like 20 years ago?

I'm not sure he was a CP or not. When I knew him he was involved in training and I had dealings with him (and a few others, but don't want to be a name dropper) on some contract training. But this was close to 30 yrs ago now.

Huge Steelers fan and Civil War buff - his war memorabilia collection was museum quality. He even had a huge canon sitting in his "war room." Not the sort of guy you would want to piss off......LOL.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I'm not sure he was a CP or not. When I knew him he was involved in training and I had dealings with him (and a few others, but don't want to be a name dropper) on some contract training. But this was close to 30 yrs ago now.

Huge Steelers fan and Civil War buff - his war memorabilia collection was museum quality. He even had a huge canon sitting in his "war room." Not the sort of guy you would want to piss off......LOL.

I'm pretty sure that he was either the CP or at least worked in the CP office. I'm not a regular visitor (thank heaven for small favors), but the name is familiar. I think it was around 20 years ago or so. His office was by the security checkpoint in the old terminal.

 

[des nudo]

Well, yes. USAPA does have a merger policy, and all mergers that are consummated under USAPA guidance will be DOH. There are two pilot seniority lists in front of them now. There are no Empire/Piedmonts lists (they vanished in 1987.) There are no USAir/PSA lists (they vanished in 1988.) There are no Piedmont/USAir lists (they vanished in 1989.) There are no TRUMP Shuttle/USAirways lists (they vanished in 1999.)

USAPA has simply taken tha position that they will deal with what is in front of them. They are under no obligation to revisit history. It's a MERGER policy, and the only MERGER that they have before them is USAirways and America West.

I just cannot fathom how otherwise intelligent people can't figure that out.

Agreed...completely. I could add a few thoughts, but no need.

(Maybe just one or two)

These arguments may or may not have been made at the time of said "list integrations" contracts were signed, and those seniority issues were settled, one way or the other, many many years ago. Those lists have not been up for debate for decades. These claims are not germaine to this legal representative with a new set of C&BL's trying to put these two lists, and ONLY these two lists together. Does AOL have a claim of DFR?...YEP..sure do... but it's with ALPA...maybe they can name their MEC and sue them individually as well.

From where I sit, the non-members, willing dissenters' and others have jeapordized their frivolous DFR on USAPA by the poor strategy of not joining, and/or interfering with the union and it's legal business. But, what do I know ?

cheers