US Pilot Labor Thread 10/27-11/2

[nycbusdriver]

Aside from that, and, likely I misunderstood, but, did not the Empire pilots gain some sort of PI retirement, a sort of trading seniority for retirement, unlike with the Shuttle dudes, with respect to the US retirement, who started from integration date? (Notwithstanding the thought out there that the biggest boosters - GJ comes to mind - to terminate the US retirement were former Shuttle dudes -- gaining themselves the PBGC, gaining (full) access to a plan they, at best, would only have had limited access to)

If they were to realign the lists, would the Empire dudes be forced to give back their retirement? If the Shuttle dudes got their Eastern DOH, would I be able to regain mine? After all, they did sign away their Eastern seniority, did they not? What would that do to past furloughs? What would one do with former EAL people who would be blockholding Captains instead of being furloughed?

BTW, a court filing in the early 90's about that same thing (Empire) was dismissed because of a statute of limitations kind of thing.

This sounds to me like a few ALPA deadenders are going out of their way to try to create issues they can use to "leverage" themselves into a cushy job again. Why would I not be surprised?

Sorry, but I had to giggle a bit at your post. The Empire pilots did indeed take on a substantial pay raise, a much improved benefits package (including the Piedmont retirement plan...they had no retirement plan supplied by Empire,) and better schedules. The effectively lost their DOH in the process.

And the giggle part (it's sad really) is that ALL of that stuff that they traded (without their consent, mind you) is GONE. And this brings us to the current argument as to why DOH needs to be sacrosanct. About the only thing that management has not been able to grab from us is our DOH seniority system. They took pensions, benefits, schedules, vacation, pay and just about everything but our firstborn child (although we do have some of those working here, too.)

Before bankruptcy one, the pilots gave back a boatload of pay, benefits, working conditions on the tacit agreement that it would save our pensions. The pensions left in bankruptcy one, but did we get back all the other stuff we gave up to save it? HA! Instead, we got a house-of-cards, Davey-dollars defined contribution plan that was supposed to make us up to 95% whole on the lost defined benefit plan. THAT lasted all of about four months when the company realized it would have been cheaper to keep the defined benefit plan. So, in bankruptcy two, they took away almost all of the "replacement" plan, but did we get the old plan back? HA!

This is why pilots tend to go bonkers when DOH is totally ignored. The (old) Piedmont MEC justified their unconscionable actions based on the Empire pilots getting all that stuff that is now worth ZIP to them. We all lived through two bankruptcies where we were raped at the hands of greedy management and pissing-in-their-panties MEC members. That's why Prater's promises to our f/o's of $30K payraises fell on deaf ears. We already know that even our contract cannot protect pay and benefits, so why give up the only thing you have to get something that may not last more than a few months?

BTW, if Al Sheldon was a PIT CP or 767 Check Airman, that's probably why I never heard of him. I didn't travel in either of those circles.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Sorry, but I had to giggle a bit at your post. The Empire pilots did indeed take on a substantial pay raise, a much improved benefits package (including the Piedmont retirement plan...they had no retirement plan supplied by Empire,) and better schedules. The effectively lost their DOH in the process.

And the giggle part (it's sad really) is that ALL of that stuff that they traded (without their consent, mind you) is GONE. And this brings us to the current argument as to why DOH needs to be sacrosanct. About the only thing that management has not been able to grab from us is our DOH seniority system. They took pensions, benefits, schedules, vacation, pay and just about everything but our firstborn child (although we do have some of those working here, too.)

Before bankruptcy one, the pilots gave back a boatload of pay, benefits, working conditions on the tacit agreement that it would save our pensions. The pensions left in bankruptcy one, but did we get back all the other stuff we gave up to save it? HA! Instead, we got a house-of-cards, Davey-dollars defined contribution plan that was supposed to make us up to 95% whole on the lost defined benefit plan. THAT lasted all of about four months when the company realized it would have been cheaper to keep the defined benefit plan. So, in bankruptcy two, they took away almost all of the "replacement" plan, but did we get the old plan back? HA!

This is why pilots tend to go bonkers when DOH is totally ignored. The (old) Piedmont MEC justified their unconscionable actions based on the Empire pilots getting all that stuff that is now worth ZIP to them. We all lived through two bankruptcies where we were raped at the hands of greedy management and pissing-in-their-panties MEC members. That's why Prater's promises to our f/o's of $30K payraises fell on deaf ears. We already know that even our contract cannot protect pay and benefits, so why give up the only thing you have to get something that may not last more than a few months?

BTW, if Al Sheldon was a PIT CP or 767 Check Airman, that's probably why I never heard of him. I didn't travel in either of those circles.

nbd -

Replace each instance of DOH in your post with the word seniority, and you might have something all Cactus pilots might be willing to work with.

 

[nycbusdriver]

nbd -

Replace each instance of DOH in your post with the word seniority, and you might have something all Cactus pilots might be willing to work with.

Seniority is DOH. If I was hired here 30 years ago, I should ALWAYS be junior to the guys whose been here 31, and senior to the guy whose been here 29. And how do we determine how long ago we were hired for the purpose of this seniority...DOH, of course.

(Sorry to use such high numbers. I know they only apply to some of us USAirways pilots. And NO Cactus pilots.)

 

[Phoenix]

I'm pretty sure that he was either the CP or at least worked in the CP office. I'm not a regular visitor (thank heaven for small favors), but the name is familiar. I think it was around 20 years ago or so. His office was by the security checkpoint in the old terminal.

It was sorta sad to see the old terminal torn down.. in a happy kinda way.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Seniority is DOH. If I was hired here 30 years ago, I should ALWAYS be junior to the guys whose been here 31, and senior to the guy whose been here 29. And how do we determine how long ago we were hired for the purpose of this seniority...DOH, of course.

(Sorry to use such high numbers. I know they only apply to some of us USAirways pilots. And NO Cactus pilots.)

And there-in lies the crux of this debacle. Both pilot groups brought something measurable into this merger - their DOH and their seniority.

With-in each individual pilot group, those two measurements are (for the most part) one and the same. That, however, is not the case when the two groups are combined.

So which measure should rule the day when the two are combined into one? (emphasis upon the word combined) Which one is the most fair? I say it is the one which enables each respective group of pilots keep their current seat and their current bidding power. And definitely not a method which places 80% of one group below the lowest member of the other group.

And to heck with fences - just ask any NWA pilot about fences.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Seniority is DOH.

That's easy enough to test, so let's do just that....

Colello (East) has a DOH of 7/18/88, while Reichert (West) has a DOH of 9/1/88 (apparently the first HP new hire class after 7/18/88). If DOH = Seniority, then Colello should have had slightly more seniority than Reichert at any point in time after they were both hired - right? If Reichert had the seniority on a given date to hold job A at HP, then Colello should have had the seniority to hold at least the same or equivalent job at US - right?

Let's pick 1/1/02 - what job could (or did) Reichert hold on that day? Could Colello hold the same or better job?

How about 1/1/04 - what job could (or did) Reichert hold on that day? Could Colello hold the same or better?

How about 9/27/05 - the day of the corportate merger? What job did Reichert hold that day? Could Colello hold the same or better?

Now all we need is someone that has the required info - what job Reichert held at HP on those dates and whether or not Colello could have held the same or equivalent job at US on those dates. I have the Colello data - anyone have Reichert's data?

Jim

 

[traderjake]

Seniority is DOH.

No it's not.

The arbitrator said so.

When this goes to court the overwhelming probability is that the judge will say so too.

 

[des nudo]

Our friend Jim obviously is endorsing the notion that any two airline CEO's considering a merger can "right-size" each airline through furloughs prior to the merger, and those affected employees are just disregarded from that point on. Interesting perspective you have Jim, and so labor UN-friendly from a retired airline pilot.

You are certainly entitiled to that opinion, but it is not shared by the vast majority of most major unionized workers in this country.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Our friend Jim obviously is endorsing the notion that any two airline CEO's considering a merger can "right-size" each airline through furloughs prior to the merger

I'm not "endorsing" any notions...just pointing out a simple test to determine if DOH really does equal seniority (as often claimed).

If DOH truly equals seniority furloughs don't matter because they're in inverse seniority order - the junior pilot will be furloughed before/at the same time as the more senior pilot. A pilot (call him X) hired at airline A should always be senior to another pilot (call him Y) hired later at any airline (according to DOH = Seniority). So if pilot X is getting furloughed, should not pilot Y also be getting furloughed since Y is junior to X?

Or are you arguing that DOH does not equal seniority?

Jim

 

[fatherabraham]

That's easy enough to test, so let's do just that....

Colello (East) has a DOH of 7/18/88, while Reichert (West) has a DOH of 9/1/88 (apparently the first HP new hire class after 7/18/88). If DOH = Seniority, then Colello should have had slightly more seniority than Reichert at any point in time after they were both hired - right? If Reichert had the seniority on a given date to hold job A at HP, then Colello should have had the seniority to hold at least the same or equivalent job at US - right?

Let's pick 1/1/02 - what job could (or did) Reichert hold on that day? Could Colello hold the same or better job?

How about 1/1/04 - what job could (or did) Reichert hold on that day? Could Colello hold the same or better?

How about 9/27/05 - the day of the corportate merger? What job did Reichert hold that day? Could Colello hold the same or better?

Now all we need is someone that has the required info - what job Reichert held at HP on those dates and whether or not Colello could have held the same or equivalent job at US on those dates. I have the Colello data - anyone have Reichert's data?

Jim

Jim,
How about using 1999 as a time frame. Colello may have or was near holding a c/o position.
This is why I think foolish to endorse relativism. One pilot should not gain over another by mgt decisions....Period!
FA

 

[john john]

Sorry, but I had to giggle a bit at your post. but did we get back all the other stuff we gave up to save it? HA! but did we get the old plan back? HA!

We all lived through two bankruptcies where we were raped at the hands of greedy management and pissing-in-their-panties MEC members.

The dispatcher’s customer service and fleet service agents show management the way. The slope of giveback subsidizing and funding others started back in 1990. but they did get their seniority aka DOH

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,
How about using 1999 as a time frame. Colello may have or was near holding a c/o position.
This is why I think foolish to endorse relativism. One pilot should not gain over another by mgt decisions....Period!
FA

It doesn't matter what date you choose under the "DOH=Seniority" theory - the pilot with the earlier DOH will be senior to the pilot with the later DOH from the time hired to retirement. You've just admitted that DOH doesn't equal Seniority because otherwise Colello wouldn't go up and down in seniority since his DOH doesn't change.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

It doesn't matter what date you choose under the "DOH=Seniority" theory - the pilot with the earlier DOH will be senior to the pilot with the later DOH from the time hired to retirement. You've just admitted that DOH doesn't equal Seniority because otherwise Colello wouldn't go up and down in seniority since his DOH doesn't change.

Jim

Your are confusing "seniority" with "relative position." Two very different things. "Relative Position" needs to be taken into account and protected with effective fences and restrictions. In fact, if ALPA had managed to implement effective fences and restrictions after Nicolau forgot about the concept (Memory failing, I suppose,) then ALPA would still be the collective bargaining agent here. I think the east pilots would have swallowed Nicolau (not happily, mind you) had there been some guarantees that they could hang on to the inherent attrition in store in the east list. It's still there, just postponed five years.

Of course, I know I'm arguing with the "Knower of All Things," so I am fully aware that mine continues to be a sisyphean effort.

While I don't agree with traderjake's sentiment about Nicolau, I do agree that a judge will decide. And I doubt the judge will accept a amicus brief from the "Knower of All Things," although I cannot fathom why he/she would not utilize that universal knowledge.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Your are confusing "seniority" with "relative position." Two very different things.

I'm not confusing anything - is not one's position relative to the other pilots on a seniority list that pilot's seniority? It doesn't matter whether you were hired 2 years ago or 20 - if you're the bottom pilot holding a job you have no seniority (you get what nobody else wants) but if you're the top guy on the list you have lots of seniority (you get first pick, ahead of everyone else).

As john john sorta pointed out, Colello gained seniority from the time hired to 1991, lost seniority in 1991, started gaining seniority again in the late 90's, lost it all again, then started gaining seniority again. Yet his DOH never changed. So explain how a constant DOH results in varying seniority over the years if DOH equals Seniority.

It's those who equate DOH with seniority that are confused...or looking for someone that has been more fortunate in their career to pay back the misfortune suffered.

I think one Westie offered up the Nic with the same C&R's reversed to protect the Easties. If those C&R's are so great you should jump on that offer...

Jim

 

[nic4us]

boeingboy

HP hired thru 1991. Then stopped, furloughed, then recalled the last of the furloughs in early 1996 at which time they hired. The first newhire class after bankrupcy was in april 1996. The first newhires in early 1996 made captain in late 2000. Those upgrades were displaced for a time after 9-11-2001, so on 1-01-02 early 1996 hires were displaced captains, who requalified later that year. By 1-01-2004 they were lineholding captains again and remained so up until the merger when upgrades had reached thru at least the 1998 hires I believe and upgrade classes had been awarded possibly all the way to late 99 or 2000 hire dates.

If we use the 1999 timeframe when Colello was near upgrade as Fatherabraham suggest the equivelent hire date at HP would have been either a 1991 recall or the 1996 newhire. However 1999 is irrelevant because it precedes the merger by 5 years. With that false logic you could say use 1982 when there was no AWA.

This is also were alot of the rub lies with the east I believe. An east pilot hired in say 1984 gets put next to a West pilot hired in say 1988 and says "I lost 4 years but improved my relative seniority ,I can live with that" while you move down a year and a may 1985 east pilot is put next to a 1991 hire and believes they lost 6 years although their relative position also improved, you go one month later and the june 1985 hire is next to a 1996 hire and is screaming and kicking as they falsely believe they lost 11 years or that the 1996 hire gained 11 years, but neither is true they too gained relative seniority while the 1996 hire lost relative seniority. Then near the bottom the 1988 hire is next to the 2003-05 hire, oh the injustice of putting a pilot who left USAirways because he saw he was next to be furloughed and left while employed to go fly at AWA were he felt his carreer would improve, and it did, above the pilot who was junior to him at USair and still is on the NIC.

How I see it from my West perspective is that the East compares everything to their stand alone position, which is as irrelevant as their DOH.