US Pilot Labor Thread 10/19-10/26

[cleardirect]

nic, clear and Jim

Bottom line for me is this. ALPA should have had a clear and simple merger policy - they didn't. Nicolau should have acknowledged that both sides had valid arguments and then he should have split the difference - he didn't. The AWA MEC should have moved off the Nic at Wye river when they realized a CBA election was afoot and the Nic was a non-starter for the east - they didn't.

Sew qui r where qui r. I suppose it is management's move next and how they respond to the DOH list passed to them by USAPA.

That is a lot of should haves in that statement.

ALPA does have a merger policy. If by clear you want it to tell you exactly where we will end up on a list prior to a merger not going to happen. Even using DOH there are C&R that make it unclear.

Nicolau listened to both sides. Just like USAPA is asserting now. The company does not have to acknowledge they accepted the DOH list. Nicolau listened to your arguments. Show me anywhere. Anywhere in the merger policy, or arbitration rules or any other legal document besides the east fantasyland that the arbitrator has to “split the differenceâ€￾. Nicolau trying to help you. When he told you to move from DOH/LOS to something more reasonable. Then maybe you could have gotten your hoped for “split the differenceâ€￾.

Point to a document that says the one of the two parties to an arbitration should move from their awarded position after the award?

Let me point out some should haves from the east.

The east should have come to the negotiating table able and prepared to negotiate.
The east should have found a compromise during mediation.
The east should have listened to the arbitrator and presented a more moderate position.
After the award the east should have abided by their agreement to accept binding arbitration.

 

[fodase]

If they are lying they are doing a good job. I specifically asked the negotiating committee an hour ago about your "assertion" that the company "wouldn't touch" the list. They laughed and said that the company didn't say anything about, "already having a list". They did ask a few questions and they took the list (both hard copy and cd version) with them when they left the room. They took the list as the "new" proposal. Which is what Nicolau was....a proposal. Their words.....not mine.

That's funny, how come their own negotiations summary has a company response to every section, except section 22?

 

[Piedmont1984]

That is a lot of should haves in that statement.




Let me point out some should haves from the east.

The east should have come to the negotiating table able and prepared to negotiate.
The east should have found a compromise during mediation.
The east should have listened to the arbitrator and presented a more moderate position.
After the award the east should have abided by their agreement to accept binding arbitration.

Yep, my haves plus your haves make a deep hole - the one we find ourselves in.

 

[john john]

I also strongly suspect that if the roles were reversed - US had been the younger, growing carrier and HP the older carrier fallen on hard times - you'd see many of those so adamant about what's "fair" change sides. Many DOH advocates would become ardent advocates for a relative position approach and vice versa.



Jim

Can you say USAir and Piedmont?
ALPA change the rules midstream

 

[cubfan]

That's funny, how come their own negotiations summary has a company response to every section, except section 22?

because they know it's a mess and not sure yet how they will respond. Either way their in a no win situation. Maybe just waiting for all the litigations to settle.

 

[fodase]

because they know it's a mess and not sure yet how they will respond. Either way their in a no win situation. Maybe just waiting for all the litigations to settle.

So how do you reconcile that with what usapa has been selling you? you know, usapa will just hand over a new list and that's it. Is that not the case anymore?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I would like to throw out some rough numbers, My point was to nic earlier that the award didn't take into account the large amount of east attrition. For starters lets just say all stay till 65.
Most of all the east capt. were hired in 1985, myself 1989. I can retire in 2023. I'll subtract 4 years from that and that takes us to 2019. 2019 being retirement year for most but not all east capt. Up to that point the east would have roughly 1450 retirements, the west 195. As of the last bid, I am 721 numbers from the bottom capt. position group 2. Now lets suppose there are no west bases and all were based out east. If the nic was in place, the west would get at least 900 of those east positions (1/2 of 1800 west pilots). 900 plus the 721 already out I'm roughly 1600 out of the left seat. My feelings are the east should have the opportunity to take advantage of east attrition. LOS would have brought that closer together. I might add Monda with only Save DAVE below him is roughly 78 numbers from me. The nic does not allow me to take advantage of that attrition. I know the numbers are not exact, but close, so I hope you get my point that I would still be in the right seat in 2019 with no protections for attrition.

A few fallacies in your argument....

1st, being 721 numbers away from the bottom Captain doesn't necessarily mean you're 721 numbers away from holding a Captain's bid. Some portion of F/O's, who are senior to that bottom Captain, are just waiting to be higher on the list (top reserve/blockholder, a certain base,for examples) before bidding Captain. Additionally, any favorable changes to the reserve system in a new contract will undoubtedly prompt some of those "more senior" F/O's to bid Captain.

2nd, under nic the West wouldn't get 1/2 the Captain bids but more like 1/3 (the ratio varies on different equipment groups). You can't find a place on the Nic list where Westies make up 1/2 of every 50 pilots because of the ratios that Nic used.

3rd, if we're talking about everyone going to 65 your retirement numbers are off (though not by an awful lot). The Jan seniority list (actually prepared in late 2007 in preparation for the Jan bid) shows 1336 age 65 retirements with a little over 200 of those being out on disability (someone retiring from disability moves you no closer to a Captain bid) - so that's 1130+ "real" retirements that get you advancement.

4th, of those 1130+ "real" retirements, over 170 are junior to you (given that I've narrowed you down to one of 4 people). Over 20 were hired during the late 90's hiring and 1 was even a new hire (now or soon to be furloughed, I gather). That drops you down to having only ~960 "real" retirements - less than 100 per year on average for the next 11 years (through 2019).

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Can you say USAir and Piedmont?
ALPA change the rules midstream

I can say it, but the rules effectively didn't change and certainly didn't change midstream (I'd use that for changing the rules in the middle of a merger).

The old rule was a preference for DOH but not to the exclusion of the 5 or 6 goals - i.e. DOH as long as it met the goals. The new rule has just the goals - DOH isn't excluded as a possibility as long as it meets the goals.

Jim

ps - actually there's one less goal for seniority integration since one of the enumerated goals is "improving pay and working conditions" which really applies to joint contract negotiations.

 

[nic4us]

I would like to throw out some rough numbers, My point was to nic earlier that the award didn't take into account the large amount of east attrition. For starters lets just say all stay till 65.
Most of all the east capt. were hired in 1985, myself 1989. I can retire in 2023. I'll subtract 4 years from that and that takes us to 2019. 2019 being retirement year for most but not all east capt. Up to that point the east would have roughly 1450 retirements, the west 195. As of the last bid, I am 721 numbers from the bottom capt. position group 2. Now lets suppose there are no west bases and all were based out east. If the nic was in place, the west would get at least 900 of those east positions (1/2 of 1800 west pilots). 900 plus the 721 already out I'm roughly 1600 out of the left seat. My feelings are the east should have the opportunity to take advantage of east attrition. LOS would have brought that closer together. I might add Monda with only Save DAVE below him is roughly 78 numbers from me. The nic does not allow me to take advantage of that attrition. I know the numbers are not exact, but close, so I hope you get my point that I would still be in the right seat in 2019 with no protections for attrition.

Cubfan

you have to retire in 2023, me too! Lets start planning the parties. I follow your numbers but get lost at west retirements, by 2019 there will be more thatn 195 west retirements. From merger date to 2023 that number would be closer to 495 and I believe it to be higher still actually around exactly 725, but by 2019 I am not so sure. Second if we were all in the same base the west would bring with them those 900 seats and you would still be 721 from upgrade not 1600. Well actually you would be out 721 plus the number of west fo's that came senior to you so you would be out say 1000 but with a slightly higher number of vacancies opening every year. I derived the 1000 by adding one third of 900 fo's from west, so a little off I am sure. My point is you still get the attrition just slightly less. If you are combined at 1000 out, with the retirements at 1450 and 400 you are 850 deep into captain territory upon retirement. Which if you divide 1850 by 15yrs=123. 850 divide by 123= you in the left seat the last 7 years here, most likely more because we are not all based east.

 

[tazz]

[

Im not doubting you, but you werent at Wye River, tazz. What did they talk about for a week? I wonder how much that fiasco cost. I hope below helps you in searching out proof and truth. This isnt a courtroom, tazz, so I guess youll have to rely on some leaps of faith.

Snoop, you're right, I wasn't at Wye River. Wouldn't have gone if I were still on the MC. My point was that post arbitration was not the time to negotiate. Our side attended only under pressure from alpa national and recognized that the time for negotiation had passed.

By the way, no one really knows what was said there as the west contingent, as usual, is honoring an agreement made with the east not to discuss details from that meeting.

Also, I have never taken uturn seriously. It is written by a few stray dogs with an axe to grind. If you knew them I believe that you would feel the same. Referencing their material will get you nowhere with most west pilots.

 

[cubfan]

So how do you reconcile that with what usapa has been selling you? you know, usapa will just hand over a new list and that's it. Is that not the case anymore?

first off I don't think USAPA has to sell me anything, I had major issues with ALPA long before USAPA came along. I have my own feelings on how things may work out, I never thought it was a slam dunk and I have expressed that to many east pilots I fly with. That being said, I don't feel the nic will be a slam dunk either. I do know we all need to come together at some point in time. I have said many times I have no ill will against anyone on the west. As far as USAPA is concerened, I feel they are doing a great job considering the massive hurdles they have to overcome, I stand with them and don't feel I have to see things a certain way just because they say so.

 

[cubfan]

A few fallacies in your argument....

1st, being 721 numbers away from the bottom Captain doesn't necessarily mean you're 721 numbers away from holding a Captain's bid. Some portion of F/O's, who are senior to that bottom Captain, are just waiting to be higher on the list (top reserve/blockholder, a certain base,for examples) before bidding Captain. Additionally, any favorable changes to the reserve system in a new contract will undoubtedly prompt some of those "more senior" F/O's to bid Captain.

2nd, under nic the West wouldn't get 1/2 the Captain bids but more like 1/3 (the ratio varies on different equipment groups). You can't find a place on the Nic list where Westies make up 1/2 of every 50 pilots because of the ratios that Nic used.

3rd, if we're talking about everyone going to 65 your retirement numbers are off (though not by an awful lot). The Jan seniority list (actually prepared in late 2007 in preparation for the Jan bid) shows 1336 age 65 retirements with a little over 200 of those being out on disability (someone retiring from disability moves you no closer to a Captain bid) - so that's 1130+ "real" retirements that get you advancement.

4th, of those 1130+ "real" retirements, over 170 are junior to you (given that I've narrowed you down to one of 4 people). Over 20 were hired during the late 90's hiring and 1 was even a new hire (now or soon to be furloughed, I gather). That drops you down to having only ~960 "real" retirements - less than 100 per year on average for the next 11 years (through 2019).

Jim

Jim,
Thanks for your insight. I agree totally with you that some are still f/o's waiting for a better quality of life, how many I'm not sure, not sure it would be an even wash. The numbers I used came from the list USAPA used for Doh. I simply just started counting, I admitted that the numbers were rough, though everyone I counted was senior to me on the DOH list. I'm unclear on the 20 hired in the late 90's and 1 a new hire. Like I said the retirements I used were straight off the list based they had birthdays attached. I was simply trying to make a point, lets just say your 960 number is correct, is that east only, if it is I would still not get to capture any attrition because all f/o's on west went above me. I still think I should be allowed the attrition rom the east.

Thanks

 

[cubfan]

Cubfan

you have to retire in 2023, me too! Lets start planning the parties. I follow your numbers but get lost at west retirements, by 2019 there will be more thatn 195 west retirements. From merger date to 2023 that number would be closer to 495 and I believe it to be higher still actually around exactly 725, but by 2019 I am not so sure. Second if we were all in the same base the west would bring with them those 900 seats and you would still be 721 from upgrade not 1600. Well actually you would be out 721 plus the number of west fo's that came senior to you so you would be out say 1000 but with a slightly higher number of vacancies opening every year. I derived the 1000 by adding one third of 900 fo's from west, so a little off I am sure. My point is you still get the attrition just slightly less. If you are combined at 1000 out, with the retirements at 1450 and 400 you are 850 deep into captain territory upon retirement. Which if you divide 1850 by 15yrs=123. 850 divide by 123= you in the left seat the last 7 years here, most likely more because we are not all based east.

Thanks for your post, well lets get started planning time is wasting away. Like I posted to Jim, the numbers I used came from USAPA list for DOH because it had birthdays. I also didn't use anyone who had Gone by their name. I also stopped at 2019 because that took all people on east west hired in 1985 and before. I have not yet counted 2020 and beyond to 2023. My reference to all east would assume no more west flying all based east didn't think about the seats because in my example worst case not all seats came east. I admit it was rough, but no f/o's west would be jr to me using DOH. I wanted to point out if 1400 or so east capt. retired and the nic was imposed, I most likely wouldn't get to see any of it based on 900 senior west f/o's with nic plus senior east fo's to me now(east). Of course I was assuming all slots filled with current f/o's on the west put ahead of me with nic. This is not an argument of Nic vs DOH, but more of a point to say at least we should be protected to our attrition for both sides. P.S. I'm voting for med. assesment for for furloughes, if you can't vote I hope all out west will contribute also, furlough sux's especially in this economy.
thanks

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Ah - the West liquidation quote. Interesting, isn't it, that HP has gone from facing liquidity issues, to facing possible BK, to on the verge of liquidating - all said by the same people. I'd submit that no one knows what would have happened to HP absent the merger, because to do so would require one to know the effects a US liquidation in 2005 would have had on the industry.

I know - lots of talk from some about US making money in BK, having other investors lined up, etd. My response is "Prove it with something concrete." The BK and SEC filings show something entirely different - US running out of cash and out of options.



The HI flying was announced prior to the merger - prior to the shareholder vote on the POR, in fact. While the East was getting the ex-ATA 757's, ETOPing other 757's, and getting the E190's to replace planes lost in BK, West was losing planes. The only gain on the West was the ETOPS mod on the HI 757, which was a gain in F/O positions. Don't forget the current furloughs, either - they've taken the brunt of those. Your "fact" needs a little adjustment.



But you can compare on the basis of what the two fleets were set to look like at the merger to what the two fleets look like today, which is what I did. After all, doesn't that affect the advancement that you accuse the West of trying to steal? Isn't USAPA attempting to take the snapshot on June 1 (or is it July 1) of this year - after most of those post-merger changes occured. Weren't there agreements reached to share at least the ex-ATA and 190 vacancies, which USAPA is trying to "steal" by having the snapshot of protected West positions nearly 3 years after the merger?
Jim

The problem with your argument is that you haven't taken into account market conditions after the merger. The cuts and additions made by the company were BUSINESS DECISIONS. I guess since you worked for so many years for a company that couldn't manage it's way out of a paper bag you couldn't recognize that. I also understand, though I don't have any current numbers, that the west group is less productive than the east, costing the company more to operate. Regardless of those numbers, if cuts on the west were a necessary business decision, then so be it. As much as some around here would like to, we don't run this company. We are employees, here to make the company function.
Nobody I know of on the east side has ever said that they wanted to take anything from the west. USAPA is not trying to steal anything. If west side reductions were inevitible, then what does that say about viability before the merger? I do know that for a couple of years after the merger it was the east side that was turning a profit while the west was losing money.
It's stupid to speculate all the "what ifs". That's what needs to stop.

 

[sharktooth]

The BK and SEC filings show something entirely different - US running out of cash and out of options.

I don't know which bk you are talking about. Entry into BK #2 was justified by one or two filings, then the tone changed completely, as I read those very same documents. It was like they got and ate their cake, bread and water to justify entry, then switched to champagne and brie to sell the merger. I wonder if the bk judge ever thought, bait and switch.

The fact that people buy into these sales pitches without ever thinking about for whom the documents are for is interesting. Like yelling fire in a crowded theatre just so that one can watch the show by oneself.

No, US was not "running out of cash" then any more then than they are now. But, it got 57% of the pilots to vote the lowest compensated contract in the industry. Management took advantage of a blip and snookered you, and more than a few others.