US Pilot Labor Thread 10/19-10/26

[fodase]

usapawatch.com


From USAPA's October 22 Update:

"Wednesday the Merger Committee addressed the BPR regarding their presentation of Section 22 (Seniority) to Management. Merger Committee Chairman Randy Mowery briefed the Board on the Committee’s presentation to Management on the specific details concerning the Conditions and Restrictions (C&R’s). Management showed interest and asked several questions concerning the C&R’s prior to taking the list for review. "

Mr. Mowery, you can lie to your membership and the self appointed leaders, but the truth cannot be ignored.

You presented the list to management with a synopsis of the C&R's. The company asked a few basic questions about the C&R's just to make sure they heard you correctly.

They then very sternly told you that they already accepted a list. No one from the company would touch the list. Eventually it was taken by the company attorney.

It's time to level with your members. The company has no interest in negotiating seniority. They told you that they paid for a list and they believe that the seniority issue has been resolved. Your list had no impact and the company will not even counter your proposal as they are already holding a list.

Lies, lies, lies Mr. Mowery.

 

[Piedmont1984]

As many would have if the merger had never happened...

I think part of the misunderstanding comes from people looking at the East side today, over 3 years after the merger and after several events that most likely wouldn't have happened without the merger, and see lots of advancement.

Take away the ex-ATA 757's (which created both Captain and F/O vacancies), the ETOPS conversion of 7 additional 757's (creating double the number of F/O positions), and the 190's (which created Capt positions even if you discount the F/O positions because of the pay), and East would have been relatively static - assuming that it would avoided liquidation.

Recall that at the time of the merger, between 40 & 50% of East attrition (varied from year to year) was coming from the ranks of the furloughed, disabled, and junior active F/O's. Having all those additional vacancies created by post-merger additions changed things a lot.

Jim

You are conflating merger methodology with financial condition. How we merge our two lists should have nothing to do with balance sheet, net income or stock value.

 

[sharktooth]

usapawatch.com


From USAPA's October 22 Update:

"Wednesday the Merger Committee addressed the BPR regarding their presentation of Section 22 (Seniority) to Management. Merger Committee Chairman Randy Mowery briefed the Board on the Committee’s presentation to Management on the specific details concerning the Conditions and Restrictions (C&R’s). Management showed interest and asked several questions concerning the C&R’s prior to taking the list for review. "

Mr. Mowery, you can lie to your membership and the self appointed leaders, but the truth cannot be ignored.

You presented the list to management with a synopsis of the C&R's. The company asked a few basic questions about the C&R's just to make sure they heard you correctly.

They then very sternly told you that they already accepted a list. No one from the company would touch the list. Eventually it was taken by the company attorney.

It's time to level with your members. The company has no interest in negotiating seniority. They told you that they paid for a list and they believe that the seniority issue has been resolved. Your list had no impact and the company will not even counter your proposal as they are already holding a list.

Lies, lies, lies Mr. Mowery.

When you call Doug Mowery, captain to you, a liar, you are really acting like a little, immature, person.

I truly cannot see any difference between what Doug said and what you, stripped of your pretentious and foolish embellishments, said.

• Doug said, list and C&Rs presented to company. Questions asked.
• You said, list and (synopsis of) C&Rs presented to company. Questions asked.

I would think a rational person would owe Doug an apology.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You are conflating merger methodology with financial condition. How we merge our two lists should have nothing to do with balance sheet, net income or stock value.

Not really - I'm talking about the difference between the East on the merger date and the East as it exists today, in terms of how the post-merger changes have affected advancement over the last 3+ years. The only place financial condition comes into play is that "old" US didn't have the money to take the post-merger actions (757's & 190's) that the merged company had. Since those post-merger changes on the East side affected advancement, I think they're fair game to throw into the discussion. That post-merger advancement is part and parcel of the "Look how much advancement there's been and it'd stop under Nic."

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Yes, and with the Nic you have the reverse. East pilots waiting - possibly for years.

I have to throw the BS flag on this post. That is a flat out lie.

Using the seniority list at the time of the merger. I found M. Murray to be the junior AAA captain. Moving down the Nicolau list it goes like this.

M. Murray

E
E
W
E
E
W
E
E
W
E
E
W and so on.

That means that for every 10 captain upgrade slots. The east gets 70% of them. Not anywhere near the hysterically lies on it will be years before an east F/O upgrades.

Using the contrived USAPA DOH list.

M. Murray sits at 1848/5275 now 35% of the list. Where he was pre-merger 65.6% on the list.

Moving down the USAPA list there are 203 east pilots before you even get to a west pilot. This is a senior west captain above 20% of the pre-merger list. We continue down the list until you get to Dean Colello who was the senior furloughed east pilot.

D. Colello 2969/5275 =56.2% Not bad in one merger go from furloughed to half way up the list.

Continuing down the list finally you get to the west junior captain.
D. Kubic 4015/5275 =76.1% For him he goes from 58.6% to 76.1% You have to ask yourself does USAPA really represent the west fairly?

What all this means is that under USAPA there are now 2167 pilots between the two pre-merger junior captains. Conclusion the west F/O who was next in line for that captain upgrade went from 1 spot to all of the active east F/O’s all of the west captains and a significant number east furloughed pilots before the west F/O sees the left seat. Now that is a number years.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Not really - I'm talking about the difference between the East on the merger date and the East as it exists today, in terms of how the post-merger changes have affected advancement over the last 3+ years. The only place financial condition comes into play is that "old" US didn't have the money to take the post-merger actions (757's & 190's) that the merged company had.

Neither did the "old" AWA. In fact, their own CEO, as recently as last week, said that they would have ceased to exist without the merger.

Since those post-merger changes on the East side affected advancement, I think they're fair game to throw into the discussion. That post-merger advancement is part and parcel of the "Look how much advancement there's been and it'd stop under Nic."

Jim

The fact that both sides have prospered evens the balance. Wasn't the Hawaii flying actually increased since the merger?

You can't compare companies on the basis of finances or anything else. Both needed each other equally, and neither would exist if the merger had not occurred.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I have to throw the BS flag on this post. That is a flat out lie.

Using the seniority list at the time of the merger. I found M. Murray to be the junior AAA captain. Moving down the Nicolau list it goes like this.

M. Murray

E
E
W
E
E
W
E
E
W
E
E
W and so on.

That means that for every 10 captain upgrade slots. The east gets 70% of them. Not anywhere near the hysterically lies on it will be years before an east F/O upgrades.

Using the contrived USAPA DOH list.

M. Murray sits at 1848/5275 now 35% of the list. Where he was pre-merger 65.6% on the list.

Moving down the USAPA list there are 203 east pilots before you even get to a west pilot. This is a senior west captain above 20% of the pre-merger list. We continue down the list until you get to Dean Colello who was the senior furloughed east pilot.

D. Colello 2969/5275 =56.2% Not bad in one merger go from furloughed to half way up the list.

Continuing down the list finally you get to the west junior captain.
D. Kubic 4015/5275 =76.1% For him he goes from 58.6% to 76.1% You have to ask yourself does USAPA really represent the west fairly?

What all this means is that under USAPA there are now 2167 pilots between the two pre-merger junior captains. Conclusion the west F/O who was next in line for that captain upgrade went from 1 spot to all of the active east F/O’s all of the west captains and a significant number east furloughed pilots before the west F/O sees the left seat. Now that is a number years.

I don't know where you got that stuff, but it isn't correct. You didn't even consider the C&R, which are integral to the list for at least 10 years.

 

[nic4us]

1984

I see and understand your viewpoint. However, I do not believe that these east pilots you are refering to should be entittled to an advantage over their west counterparts just because their age may be generally statically greater. There are west pilots in the same situation, delaying on the west can also deny. Any requalifying or upgrading will happen because of the merger not in spite of it, so share and share alike.

One more thing I just thought of. In your earlier example of who would upgrade first between just two. I might actuallly also favor a requal before an upgrade, sort of a retroactive right of first refusal. I realize this may seem to go against my inclination to adhear to the NIC, but I try to be unfair not just unreasonable.

 

[cleardirect]

I don't know where you got that stuff, but it isn't correct. You didn't even consider the C&R, which are integral to the list for at least 10 years.

I used the Nicolau list and the proposed USAPA list. Prove where my numbers are wrong.

The C&R are a meaningless joke that do nothing to protect the west. They should be disregarded.

 

[nic4us]

I don't know where you got that stuff, but it isn't correct. You didn't even consider the C&R, which are integral to the list for at least 10 years.

I believe it was obtained from the seniority list that was rendered with the Nicolau decision, and accepted by the company, and then compared to the DOH list presented by USAPA. You are correct though he did not seem to take into account the C&Rs that further favor the east.

 

[Piedmont1984]

1984

I see and understand your viewpoint. However, I do not believe that these east pilots you are refering to should be entittled to an advantage over their west counterparts just because their age may be generally statically greater. There are west pilots in the same situation, delaying on the west can also deny. Any requalifying or upgrading will happen because of the merger not in spite of it, so share and share alike.

One more thing I just thought of. In your earlier example of who would upgrade first between just two. I might actuallly also favor a requal before an upgrade, sort of a retroactive right of first refusal. I realize this may seem to go against my inclination to adhear to the NIC, but I try to be unfair not just unreasonable.

nic, clear and Jim

Bottom line for me is this. ALPA should have had a clear and simple merger policy - they didn't. Nicolau should have acknowledged that both sides had valid arguments and then he should have split the difference - he didn't. The AWA MEC should have moved off the Nic at Wye river when they realized a CBA election was afoot and the Nic was a non-starter for the east - they didn't.

Sew qui r where qui r. I suppose it is management's move next and how they respond to the DOH list passed to them by USAPA.

 

[GuntherA320]

If they are lying they are doing a good job. I specifically asked the negotiating committee an hour ago about your "assertion" that the company "wouldn't touch" the list. They laughed and said that the company didn't say anything about, "already having a list". They did ask a few questions and they took the list (both hard copy and cd version) with them when they left the room. They took the list as the "new" proposal. Which is what Nicolau was....a proposal. Their words.....not mine.

usapawatch.com


From USAPA's October 22 Update:

"Wednesday the Merger Committee addressed the BPR regarding their presentation of Section 22 (Seniority) to Management. Merger Committee Chairman Randy Mowery briefed the Board on the Committee’s presentation to Management on the specific details concerning the Conditions and Restrictions (C&R’s). Management showed interest and asked several questions concerning the C&R’s prior to taking the list for review. "

Mr. Mowery, you can lie to your membership and the self appointed leaders, but the truth cannot be ignored.

You presented the list to management with a synopsis of the C&R's. The company asked a few basic questions about the C&R's just to make sure they heard you correctly.

They then very sternly told you that they already accepted a list. No one from the company would touch the list. Eventually it was taken by the company attorney.

It's time to level with your members. The company has no interest in negotiating seniority. They told you that they paid for a list and they believe that the seniority issue has been resolved. Your list had no impact and the company will not even counter your proposal as they are already holding a list.

Lies, lies, lies Mr. Mowery.

 

[Megasnoop]

QUOTE (tazz @ Oct 23 2008, 11:09 PM)
Please provide proof that we refused LOS. Don't give me this Wye River crap either. Once the arbitrator spoke all negotiations ceased. Our side only attended those foolish meetings under pressure from alpa. The merger policy worked as advertised until Prater usurped the process by attempting to negotiate post arbitration. He is a politician, not a leader and thanks to him we are now spending money to defend what he was obligated to defend.

Im not doubting you, but you werent at Wye River, tazz. What did they talk about for a week? I wonder how much that fiasco cost. I hope below helps you in searching out proof and truth. This isnt a courtroom, tazz, so I guess youll have to rely on some leaps of faith.

The Wye River information you are eluding to was written by one of your own pilots.

Wye River, america west pilot opinion, click here

Parker can negotiate post arbitration because there are separate operations until we have an agreement.

Noster, I get uturn, too. Their kooky and speculate some. After that came out, I asked two of our former ALPO-types who were there. They didnt know what was going on internally from the west at Wye, but said the article was fairly accurate except the west never formally answered the LOS offer. ALPO took that as a no. Fact is, the offer was made in opening session and ALPO pushed it. I dont think its a stretch to think if it wasnt accepted, it was rejected. Disclosure - I quit ALPO after LOA93, so I didnt get any ALPO literature about Wye River. ALPO still had my address and sent me ALPO-FUD when they were trying to save themselves.

Your right. Parker can talk about anything he wants in negotiation. snooper

 

[BoeingBoy]

Neither did the "old" AWA. In fact, their own CEO, as recently as last week, said that they would have ceased to exist without the merger.

Ah - the West liquidation quote. Interesting, isn't it, that HP has gone from facing liquidity issues, to facing possible BK, to on the verge of liquidating - all said by the same people. I'd submit that no one knows what would have happened to HP absent the merger, because to do so would require one to know the effects a US liquidation in 2005 would have had on the industry.

I know - lots of talk from some about US making money in BK, having other investors lined up, etd. My response is "Prove it with something concrete." The BK and SEC filings show something entirely different - US running out of cash and out of options.

The fact that both sides have prospered evens the balance. Wasn't the Hawaii flying actually increased since the merger?

The HI flying was announced prior to the merger - prior to the shareholder vote on the POR, in fact. While the East was getting the ex-ATA 757's, ETOPing other 757's, and getting the E190's to replace planes lost in BK, West was losing planes. The only gain on the West was the ETOPS mod on the HI 757, which was a gain in F/O positions. Don't forget the current furloughs, either - they've taken the brunt of those. Your "fact" needs a little adjustment.

You can't compare companies on the basis of finances or anything else. Both needed each other equally, and neither would exist if the merger had not occurred.

But you can compare on the basis of what the two fleets were set to look like at the merger to what the two fleets look like today, which is what I did. After all, doesn't that affect the advancement that you accuse the West of trying to steal? Isn't USAPA attempting to take the snapshot on June 1 (or is it July 1) of this year - after most of those post-merger changes occured. Weren't there agreements reached to share at least the ex-ATA and 190 vacancies, which USAPA is trying to "steal" by having the snapshot of protected West positions nearly 3 years after the merger?
Jim

 

[cubfan]

Nostodamus

You rebut my statements by providing a link to the east mec response to th NIC. Well I have read it before and it is full of lies. First premise in it is that ALPA merger policy was not followed, to this I say BS. Merger policy was followed to the letter of all five tenants. I cannot provide a link but pehaps you should read the NW and UA merger commitee responses to the NIC, or perhaps you should read the Nicolau decision itself.

Second, the graphic showing the migration of red dots only enhances my arguement. Cubfan at 60% on the east list would be one of the remaining but fewer blue dots that move up just as quickly as the red dots. All those blue dots below the red dots were furloughs and new hires, they are on the bottom at the beginning and move up just like anyone else, everyone shares attrition,everyone gets a portion of it, unless you consider that the greater attrition will happen in the domicle Cubfan is in , and in his own domicile Cubfan will move up faster that his west counterpart.

Finally after the NIC there was a computer program circulating showing positions based on DOH,NIC and stand alone. I assumed this is what generated the graphic. Had an east jumpseat show it to me. We put in my number and it spit out data that was totally wrong. So I question the finer details of this report altogether.

I would like to throw out some rough numbers, My point was to nic earlier that the award didn't take into account the large amount of east attrition. For starters lets just say all stay till 65.
Most of all the east capt. were hired in 1985, myself 1989. I can retire in 2023. I'll subtract 4 years from that and that takes us to 2019. 2019 being retirement year for most but not all east capt. Up to that point the east would have roughly 1450 retirements, the west 195. As of the last bid, I am 721 numbers from the bottom capt. position group 2. Now lets suppose there are no west bases and all were based out east. If the nic was in place, the west would get at least 900 of those east positions (1/2 of 1800 west pilots). 900 plus the 721 already out I'm roughly 1600 out of the left seat. My feelings are the east should have the opportunity to take advantage of east attrition. LOS would have brought that closer together. I might add Monda with only Save DAVE below him is roughly 78 numbers from me. The nic does not allow me to take advantage of that attrition. I know the numbers are not exact, but close, so I hope you get my point that I would still be in the right seat in 2019 with no protections for attrition.