US Pilot Labor Thread 10/19-10/26

[oldiebutgoody]

The difference is that in your first example, the Eastie would then be next to upgrade and get it, then the Westie would get the next, Eastie next, Westie next, etc (using a 1 for 1 ratio which is different than Nic). Carried from the microcosm to the macrocosm, however, you get Eastie, Eastie, Eastie, Eastie, etc getting the next upgrade while that Westie (who was next in line on his/her side) waits - possibly for years.

Jim

Just how is that wrong, when virtually all of the attrition is from the East? The real windfall in the Nic award was that it allowed the West guys to capture and benefit from the East attrition. The East guys, F/Os in particular, have waited patiently for their turn. Then Nic came in, placed guys 10-15 years younger and with as much as 17 years less LOS in front ot them. It's important to note that it wasn't ONLY the F/Os that feel that way, as the vote for USAPA demonstrated.

The best solution? C & R that allows West movement on the West side and East movement on the East side. That's what USAPA is attempting to do. The only reason it doesn't appeal to some is that they really did have their eyes on someone else's seat.

And yes, I am a true believer in LOS as a means of combining ALL groups, but since it was turned down flatly by the West guys, I guess DOH with C&R is the next best solution. It's such a simple solution that it's the way everyone else does it. And, in general, it works great. It may not be totally fair, but it is certainly the FAIREST system available.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The difference is that in your first example, the Eastie would then be next to upgrade and get it, then the Westie would get the next, Eastie next, Westie next, etc (using a 1 for 1 ratio which is different than Nic). Carried from the microcosm to the macrocosm, however, you get Eastie, Eastie, Eastie, Eastie, etc getting the next upgrade while that Westie (who was next in line on his/her side) waits - possibly for years.

Jim

Yes, and with the Nic you have the reverse. East pilots waiting - possibly for years.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Yes, and with the Nic you have the reverse. East pilots waiting - possibly for years.

With the Nic you'd have East guys that were NEVER furloughed that would NEVER upgrade, unless the airline had a big growth spurt. Not fair at all.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Just how is that wrong, when virtually all of the attrition is from the East?

I keep seeing this, and while true in absolute numbers a significant portion of the East attrition is in the F/O ranks (and furloughed when East still had those). If you look at only Captain attrition at the time of the merger the numbers were close to the difference in size of the two pre-merger carriers.

The real windfall in the Nic award was that it allowed the West guys to capture and benefit from the East attrition.

And East pilots to benefit from West attrition. Besides, with the ratios used, it's not like East F/O will have a lot of West F/O's between him and the next senior East pilot. Upward movement is shared with the Nic, but exclusively East (potentially for years) with DOH/LOS.

The best solution? C & R that allows West movement on the West side and East movement on the East side. That's what USAPA is attempting to do.

I've read the C&R's that go along with the DOH list that USAPA is proposing and that isn't anywhere near what is being attempted. Under those C&R's, just about every East pilot that gets into a west domicile (and every opening will be a "system seniority" opening) will keep the West pilots from moving upward.

And yes, I am a true believer in LOS as a means of combining ALL groups, but since it was turned down flatly by the West guys, I guess DOH with C&R is the next best solution. It's such a simple solution that it's the way everyone else does it. And, in general, it works great. It may not be totally fair, but it is certainly the FAIREST system available.

As I said, I can respect your position although I don't agree with it. Hopefully you'll return the favor.

Jim

 

[tazz]

A couple of points, tazz. Over the years, seniority arbritrations have gone from nominal DOH with C&Rs to relative seniority with C&Rs and everything in between. Not sure where you come up with this "stapling." Its never been on the table.

Key word: "IF," but "Imposed" by whom? USAPA wont. The company wont. A Court? Go ahead and DFR. Not sure why your bringing up the theme of "stapling," when it was never on the table.

Snoop, I mentioned stapling as a measure of extremes in fairness. In previous posts I did make statements about stapling. After the acquisition was announced but before it was actually consummated our merger committees met and agreed that we would not demand staple if your side would not demand DOH. Your side agreed as the acquisition was not yet consummated and probably feared the west could somehow stop/interrupt the merger from happening.

Once the acquisition was consummated your side went right for DOH, even stating that both sides discussed it when, indeed, we hadn't. Our merger committee was so totally surprised and flabberghasted to read that update when it went out to your people. I was the hard liner on the merger committee who was totally frustrated that we opened with relative seniority. I became even more frustrated when we didn't change our position once your side proved they weren't to be trusted to honor agreements.

Our chairman always insisted that we must be reasonable because he knew that we would eventually be before an arbitrator and our actions would be taken into account. He couldn't have been more correct. The problem is that, as proven, your side will not honor agreements that they enter into. There will never be trust. There will never be compromise. Whatever the courts decide will be imposed and we will all have to live with that. I have faith that our side will prevail just as you have faith your side will. If your side prevails I know our side will live with it. The million dollar question is that if our side prevails just how will your side deal with it? My concern is that if your side can't have their way they will take this place down (and I believe they can) just to make a point.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I keep seeing this, and while true in absolute numbers a significant portion of the East attrition is in the F/O ranks (and furloughed when East still had those). If you look at only Captain attrition at the time of the merger the numbers were close to the difference in size of the two pre-merger carriers.

Doesn't matter, as long as the guy leaving is senior to you. The whole Captain thing is blown way out of proportion.

And East pilots to benefit from West attrition. Besides, with the ratios used, it's not like East F/O will have a lot of West F/O's between him and the next senior East pilot. Upward movement is shared with the Nic, but exclusively East (potentially for years) with DOH/LOS.

I see it the exact opposite. A lot of east guuys WILL NEVER move under the Nic, since the west guys would be so much younger and more senior.

I've read the C&R's that go along with the DOH list that USAPA is proposing and that isn't anywhere near what is being attempted. Under those C&R's, just about every East pilot that gets into a west domicile (and every opening will be a "system seniority" opening) will keep the West pilots from moving upward.

The only "protected" positions are for the West side. None on the East. And, in the case of a reduction, the ratio of Captains is retained, regardless of seniority. Just how does that in any way disadvantage the West? If anything, it gives them a HUGE advantage.

As I said, I can respect your position although I don't agree with it. Hopefully you'll return the favor.

Jim

It just doesn't make any sense to me. ALPA's philosophy of complex formulas are just a smoke screen which allow one group an advantage over the other. Didn't get it then, don't get it now. But you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

 

[tazz]

And yes, I am a true believer in LOS as a means of combining ALL groups, but since it was turned down flatly by the West guys, I guess DOH with C&R is the next best solution.

I am tired of you saying that LOS was turned down by the west guys. Prove to me that happened. The truth is that your side flatly refused anything that did not exclusively involve DOH. That's why we ended up in arbitration. Read the transcripts from the arbitration. Your side wouldn't budge off of your DOH stance even after Nicolau warned that it would not stand.

Please provide proof that we refused LOS. Don't give me this Wye River crap either. Once the arbitrator spoke all negotiations ceased. Our side only attended those foolish meetings under pressure from alpa. The merger policy worked as advertised until Prater usurped the process by attempting to negotiate post arbitration. He is a politician, not a leader and thanks to him we are now spending money to defend what he was obligated to defend.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I

Please provide proof that we refused LOS. Don't give me this Wye River crap either. Once the arbitrator spoke all negotiations ceased. Our side only attended those foolish meetings under pressure from alpa.

Looks like flatly refusing to me. I guess saying"no" means something different on the west side of the Mississippi.

Now I see why this isn't working. We aren't even speaking the same language.

 

[nostradamus]

Please provide proof that we refused LOS. Don't give me this Wye River crap either. Once the arbitrator spoke all negotiations ceased. Our side only attended those foolish meetings under pressure from alpa. The merger policy worked as advertised until Prater usurped the process by attempting to negotiate post arbitration. He is a politician, not a leader and thanks to him we are now spending money to defend what he was obligated to defend.

The Wye River information you are eluding to was written by one of your own pilots.

Wye River, america west pilot opinion, click here


Parker can negotiate post arbitration because there are separate operations until we have an agreement.

 

[nic4us]

1984

I see your point. Although there is a slight false premise in that no two could have the exact same seniority. In the first bid, the east pilot would upgrade because they are senior even on the NIC. Now a second bid comes up for only one capain seat, does the West pilot get it or the next senior east who also has a DOH of probably the same as the last upgraded east. You are implying it should go to the next east pilot because they were in the same class as the last upgrade and therefore have the same DOH and should be the next in seniority because they formerly were. I say the west pilot gets it because, they have waited just as long from the time of the merger for this opurtunity as the east pilot who is relatively junior to them. Now a third becomes available, who gets that, obviously the next pilot who also happens to be east. Now on the NIC the next couple of bids may indeed go to former east pilots, because of relative slotting.

I guess what I am saying is the merger was a game changer for all involved. What is still the most important factor for us all is how we treat each other. If you deny the west, you are denying anything has changed. From my point of view, DOH denies the west, NIC shares the future.

You hit on a great example. What is fair in the micro should be fair for the entire group. I will assume you were hired in 1984. You said you lost 4-5 years in the NIC, that would mean you are now next to a west pilot hired in 1988-89. That pilot now has 20 years continous service and has been captain for at least 10. Now I am aware that this puts them next to your position that may seem as a boost in their status, but DOH puts them junior to furloughs at the time of the merger. The fact of the matter is the east wants to treat the west as if they were hired at US Air on the date they were hired at America West, we were not. We came to this the same way you did, on the same day you did. Believing otherwise belittles the west and deprives the east of respect you rightfully deserve.

 

[BoeingBoy]

It just doesn't make any sense to me. ALPA's philosophy of complex formulas are just a smoke screen which allow one group an advantage over the other. Didn't get it then, don't get it now.

Just as your position doesn't make any sense to me. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Eventually someone, probably a judge, will decide which way this will go (assuming US lasts that long).

But you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

I may have to rethink my respect for your opinion since I'm only "entitled" to have a different one...

Jim

 

[nic4us]

With the Nic you'd have East guys that were NEVER furloughed that would NEVER upgrade, unless the airline had a big growth spurt. Not fair at all.

Also not true at all

 

[Piedmont1984]

1984


I guess what I am saying is the merger was a game changer for all involved. What is still the most important factor for us all is how we treat each other. If you deny the west, you are denying anything has changed. From my point of view, DOH denies the west, NIC shares the future.

You hit on a great example. What is fair in the micro should be fair for the entire group. I will assume you were hired in 1984. You said you lost 4-5 years in the NIC, that would mean you are now next to a west pilot hired in 1988-89. That pilot now has 20 years continous service and has been captain for at least 10. Now I am aware that this puts them next to your position that may seem as a boost in their status, but DOH puts them junior to furloughs at the time of the merger. The fact of the matter is the east wants to treat the west as if they were hired at US Air on the date they were hired at America West, we were not. We came to this the same way you did, on the same day you did. Believing otherwise belittles the west and deprives the east of respect you rightfully deserve.

nic

From my vantage DOH does not deny the west - but simply delays the west. OTOH, the Nic award will permanently deny many in the east because they will retire before they upgrade.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Just as your position doesn't make any sense to me. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Eventually someone, probably a judge, will decide which way this will go (assuming US lasts that long).



I may have to rethink my respect for your opinion since I'm only "entitled" to have a different one...

Jim

One huge difference. You get no input into the solution.

 

[BoeingBoy]

OTOH, the Nic award will permanently deny many in the east because they will retire before they upgrade.

As many would have if the merger had never happened...

I think part of the misunderstanding comes from people looking at the East side today, over 3 years after the merger and after several events that most likely wouldn't have happened without the merger, and see lots of advancement.

Take away the ex-ATA 757's (which created both Captain and F/O vacancies), the ETOPS conversion of 7 additional 757's (creating double the number of F/O positions), and the 190's (which created Capt positions even if you discount the F/O positions because of the pay), and East would have been relatively static - assuming that it would avoided liquidation.

Recall that at the time of the merger, between 40 & 50% of East attrition (varied from year to year) was coming from the ranks of the furloughed, disabled, and junior active F/O's. Having all those additional vacancies created by post-merger additions changed things a lot.

Jim