US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 7/14-7/21 NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[aquagreen73s]

Otherwise a court imposed contract could only come from a bankruptcy process, which in turn will probably mean layoffs & parking more planes - something the East is quite used to.

That scenario is likely IMO, but layoffs will be done according to seniority - Nicolau.

 

[nycbusdriver]

That scenario is likely IMO, but layoffs will be done according to seniority - Nicolau.

Not without a joint contract, it won't. And BK will arrive long before we see a joint contract on this property. Bank on it.

 

[SegmentKing]

So, thoughts on the next round of airplane groundings? 20? 30?

Although I think Kirby's biggest problem will be finding a place to park them. I'm hearing Victorville, Roswell, and Pinal are all full...

 

[aquagreen73s]

Not without a joint contract, it won't. And BK will arrive long before we see a joint contract on this property. Bank on it.

Parker will need the TA modified to reduce headcount and that will only be possible via an 1113 hearing. The BK judge will clearly not violate the spirit of the injunction.

Edit: headcount goes with airplanes and the West is at fleet minimum. The only way to eliminate that provision is to have it changed. After this order, there is no way would get away with negotiating that kind of change without Judge Wake having something to say about it. Hence, it'll be the BK judge and we all know what he/she will order, and that's because of that 53 page order yesterday.

2nd edit: it is possible to furlough and just keep the airplanes, but that blows a hole in utilization which defeats the purpose. The only way for Parker to reduce mainline is to get the TA modified and since the West class is under the protection of a federal judge, there's probably only one way to have the fleet min provision struck: via an 1113 hearing. I can't think of any other way.

Trust me busdrvr, unlike you and the rest of the diehard uSAP supporters, we've thought this all the way through. All roads lead to Nicolau.

 

[cleardirect]

We absolutely intend to. I don't think the west pilots have a clue as to the extent of our resolve to keep you from your lottery winnings. The postings of west pilots here seem to think we on the east are weary of this battle. We are simply digging in deeper.

You dig as deep as you want. I think Seham, Cleary and Bradford got a nice hole started for you.

We can wait. It is now up to the east to decide how much pain you guys are willing to endure. We now know that the Nicolau is the only seniority that exists. If you guys want any inprove for the rest of your careers you will have to decide what is important.

BTW the next merger or union will also include the Nicolau. Just in case you guys think that changing horses will get you another shot at your dream.

Get the backhoe and keep digging. you are losing more than we are.

 

[cleardirect]

Not without a joint contract, it won't. And BK will arrive long before we see a joint contract on this property. Bank on it.

What do you think BK will bring with it? Yes a joint contract. A court imposed bankruptcy contract. Within that contract will be Wake's injunction to use the Nicolau. Once that is in place any reductions will be done by the Nicolau.

So I guess it is your and the east's best interest to hope everyday that LCC does NOT enter a BK court.

If you don't think this can happen review your history. How did you lose your pension? Didn't someone from the east think that a BK judge would be kind to you and let you keep your money?

Do you think a BK judge will let you keep separate ops when the company needs integrated ops to come out of BK?

See the light. All roads lead to Nicolau. The options are down to only a few. An improved contract with Nicolau. A BK imposed contract with the Nicolau. A merger with the Nicolau.

 

[cleardirect]

This is an absolute lie. USAPA never guaranteed any results on the outcome of Nicolau. USAPA simply made it clear that ridding ourselves of ALPA was the only way we might be able to rid ourselves of Nicolau. Bradford and Cleary never made any promises about the outcome. In fact, Bradford was upfront about the likelihood of protracted litigation.

USAPA’s argument would allow a union to punish any disfavored minority by pointing to the majority preference in the union as long as that majority threatens to obstruct the collective bargaining process, in this case by hijacking contract ratification. Discrimination and bad faith would be permitted as long as a zealous majority of union members insisted. Majority will alone does not corrupt union action. See Rakestraw, 981 F.2d at 1533 (“If the union’s leaders took account of the fact that the workers at the larger firm preferred this outcome, so what? Majority rule is the norm.â€). It does not exculpate all union action, either. The union’s obligation to federal labor law includes an obligation to stand up to its membership. USAPA argues that ALPA’s merger policy only requires the union to use “all reasonable means†to implement the Nicolau Award, but this phrase is quoted out of context. The policy requires the union to use “all reasonable means . . . to compel the company to accept and implement the merged seniority list.†[MP Pt. 1.I.1.] It does not allow the union to capitulate to an abusive majority.12

This principle goes to the core of union politics and bargaining assumptions. A union is required to explain agreements to union members prior to a mandatory ratification vote. White v. White Rose Food, a Div. of DiGiorgio Corp., 237 F.3d 174, 183 (2d Cir. 2001). Before and after its election, USAPA has misled the majority about its power to improve their seniority prospects at the expense of the West Pilots. The will of the East Pilots springs from a mistaken understanding of the law and mismanaged expectations. If this is an impasse, it is one USAPA goaded on. If the membership were correctly advised on the limits of fair representation that constrain the agreement—and all the collective bargaining of every union— then they would perceive no incentive to hold out for an improper bargaining objective. Those employees would be left with a choice: To vote in favor of ratifying a single CBA that incorporated the Nicolau Award, or to vote against it. What they could not do is vote against it and expect the next CBA or the next union to violate the duty of fair representation in the very same way as the first one could not. In effect, USAPA claims that the East Pilots hold such strong objections to the Nicolau Award that they always will vote as a bloc against any new CBA with it, enjoying the self-denial of a single CBA with improved wages and working conditions into perpetuity. Even if this unbelievable story is believed, it only means that the East Pilots have the power of self-inflicted harm. It does not mean that the union’s duty of fair representation falls victim to self-hostagetaking. Whether considered as a matter of fact or law, the asserted impasse does not absolve USAPA from liability.

12 As a historical matter, the duty of fair representation could not have developed if this impasse theory were valid. Surely, in those early cases, unions that discriminated against black workers were catering to a stubborn racism of the majority. The duty would mean nothing if a majority could undo it by force of stubbornness.

You need to read a little closer. It does not say guarantee. It says that usapa MISLEAD. It also says that east pilots misunderstood the law. Now ask your selves where do you get your understanding of the law? Calling the judge a liar is part of the reason the you are where you are.

Did you sit through 9 days of the trial? The judge did, he understands fully what usapa tried to do. He has a firm grasp of what happened. If you would read these 53 pages with just a little thought instead of a complete bias you might begin to understand why usapa is in the deep hole that it is.

This is an outside person that has no dog in this fight. He listened to the facts and evidence and came to the same conclusion that the west has been trying to tell your guys for the last several years. Unions do not have ultimate power and they do have to treat everyone fairly. That does not mean what you think is fair.

Take the time to read the entire document.

Yes Bradford told you about protracted litigation. Do he also tell you that you would lose the fight? No all we heard from Bradford, Cleary USAPA is the law is on your side. Guess what, they were wrong. Now we hear the same thing. The ninth circuit is going to side with you. Do you see a pattern yet? What expert is telling you that you will win on appeal? The same guy that misunderstood the law in the first place?

But you go ahead and believe what you want.

This is a serious misconception on your part. The will of the east pilots stems from the blatant unfairness and failure to follow ALPA merger policy. It has nothing at all to do with our "expectations." You and the rest of the west have seriously misread the situation and motivations on the east, and continue to do so.

It seems that the east pilots are the only ones that see the “blatant†unfairness. No one else thinks that ALPA merger policy was not followed. Can you point to any legal authority that agrees with you? Simple your opinion. It has everything to do with your expectations. You EXPECTED DOH. How many time have we heard at length what your career EXPECTATIONS were? How you all EXPECTED to be captains for the last waning moments of your career.

The west fully understands the east “motives†It is you sir that has misread the situation.

Let me fill you in in case you missed it.

Both sides entered into BINDING arbitration. A list was issued. That list was accepted by the company. A federal judge and jury looked at the case and ruled that the list is the list. So an arbitrator, the company, the west pilots and a federal court all understand the situation perfectly. It is time for the east to understand the situation.

 

[Megasnoop]

that is assuming a contract gets voted in. Otherwise a court imposed contract could only come from a bankruptcy process, which in turn will probably mean layoffs & parking more planes - something the East is quite used to. When PHX gets downsized by 25%, laid off for a few years, called back, only to be told their time @ HP doesn't count anymore, will the West know how it feels

King, welcome back. Where you been hiding? Great points. You give me the perfect entre' into Aquaman's post.

Parker will need the TA modified to reduce headcount and that will only be possible via an 1113 hearing. The BK judge will clearly not violate the spirit of the injunction.

Read the TA, aquaman. Parker doesn't need 1113 to modify the TA.

XII. Effective Date, Modification, Status of Letter of Agreement, and Duration This Letter of Agreement:
A. Will take effect on the date of execution set forth below;
B. May be modified by written agreement of the Association and the Airline Parties collectively;

As long as USAPA doesn't violate the injunction (9th circuit notwithstanding), USAPA can reduce headcount with a modification of the TA. If the Nic passes from ALPA to USAPA, then so does USAPAs ability to modify the TA.

But more to the point, if somehow USAPA loses the reduced hours arbitration, no telling how low the company can go. Any guess which side they'll cut?

Edit: headcount goes with airplanes and the West is at fleet minimum. The only way to eliminate that provision is to have it changed. After this order, there is no way uSAPa would get away with negotiating that kind of change without Judge Wake having something to say about it. Hence, it'll be the BK judge and we all know what he/she will order, and that's because of that 53 page order yesterday.

As long as the TA modification doesn't violate good faith bargaining using the Nic to get a TA, the judge can't do a thing.

2nd edit: it is possible to furlough and just keep the airplanes, but that blows a hole in utilization which defeats the purpose. The only way for Parker to reduce mainline is to get the TA modified and since the West class is under the protection of a federal judge, there's probably only one way to have the fleet min provision struck: via an 1113 hearing. I can't think of any other way.

Or lose the arbitration. you'd better hope USAPA made a good case.

Trust me busdrvr, unlike you and the rest of the diehard uSAP supporters, we've thought this all the way through. All roads lead to Nicolau.

And with a win at the 9th, the Nic road is a dead end.

That scenario is likely IMO, but layoffs will be done according to seniority - Nicolau.

Not based on what the Judge said yesterday.

You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there. Yogi Berra

 

[N924PS]

We absolutely intend to. I don't think the west pilots have a clue as to the extent of our resolve to keep you from your lottery winnings. The postings of west pilots here seem to think we on the east are weary of this battle. We are simply digging in deeper.

No one can say for certain how a vote will go, even if a T/A was in the offing to actually cast a vote.

However, what I observe, more and more East pilots including F/O's, believe it's time to concede the Nicolau.

You may be digging in deeper, but as an 76I Captain with an A330 bid, perhaps you can still pay your bills every month without dipping into your savings/retirement accounts. Most East F/O's are not so lucky, especially those on the E190.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Read the TA, aquaman. Parker doesn't need 1113 to modify the TA.

XII. Effective Date, Modification, Status of Letter of Agreement, and Duration This Letter of Agreement:
A. Will take effect on the date of execution set forth below;
B. May be modified by written agreement of the Association and the Airline Parties collectively;

And you either missed the totally obvious point about yesterday's order, or you're deliberately hiding the fact - anything USAPA does that has the potential of circumventing Nicolau OR harming the West further, then Judge Wake is going to have something to say about it. I didn't mention mutual modification because that's a no-brainer after yesterday. There is NO WAY the fleet min is being reduced on the West without Judge Wake agreeing to it. USAPA lost their "right" to govern themselves as they were found guilty of pervasively violating their duty to fairly represent the West. You really need to read the order.

As long as the TA modification doesn't violate good faith bargaining using the Nic to get a TA, the judge can't do a thing.

A modification of the fleet min TA violates the spirit of Nicolau. You just don't get it. From here forward you're getting Nic and only the Nic. You really need to read the order before posting further because if you did, you'd see that bad faith can be found in a multitude of things USAPA has done and has threatened to do in the future.

Or lose the arbitration. you'd better hope USAPA made a good case. And with a win at the 9th, the Nic road is a dead end.

Your side can't articulate a single, coherent reason as to why yesterday's order is not in accord with RLA law. You really need to read the order, you know, the one written by a cum laude Harvard Law grad who was one of the most respected appellate attorneys before taking the bench. When your side says things like an appeal to the Ninth is a sure thing, it just sounds silly in light of Judge Wake's work thus far and his credentials.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

We all have a clue, and so does a federal judge who says you are dead wrong.

All roads lead to Nicolau and given the circumstances of our industry, Nic will be here sooner rather than later.

Actually ALL roads lead to BK and liquidation...... the path we are on now with the current management team.

Doesn't matter what your seniority is now, or what seat your in (or will be under NIC?)........The Bottom Line is:

Record load factors with NO YIELD are just that:

$$$ NO YIELD $$$

Might as well go down fighting IMHO

 

[cleardirect]

Actually ALL roads lead to BK and liquidation...... the path we are on now with the current management team.

Doesn't matter what your seniority is now, or what seat your in (or will be under NIC?)........The Bottom Line is:

Record load factors with NO YIELD are just that:

$$$ NO YIELD $$$

Might as well go down fighting IMHO

NO yield! Can't be, say it ain't so.

What happened to the strong east coast high yield markets? Gone.

With no yield where do you think the cuts will come now. I would say from the high COST routes. You see out here in the west we have been competing against SWA for a long time. We knew how to keep cost down. Your east coast management never learned that trick.

Anyway the west is at or below min hours and aircraft. Looks like the next round of reductions come from the place that has some to spare and could use some cost reductions.

 

[luvn737s]

As long as USAPA doesn't violate the injunction (9th circuit notwithstanding), USAPA can reduce headcount with a modification of the TA. If the Nic passes from ALPA to USAPA, then so does USAPAs ability to modify the TA.

But more to the point, if somehow USAPA loses the reduced hours arbitration, no telling how low the company can go. Any guess which side they'll cut?

Well, if USAPA decides to cave on the TA fleet mins out of spite for the west, then they've opened the door for further reductions on the east as well.

Cleary's not one for clouding the water with his own blood. Everything he's done is about remaining in "power", regardless of who pays the price.

Nice try though. There should be plenty left in the FEAR locker to pull from.

 

[Freighterguynow]

However, what I observe, more and more East pilots including F/O's, believe it's time to concede the Nicolau.

You may be digging in deeper, but as an 76I Captain with an A330 bid, perhaps you can still pay your bills every month without dipping into your savings/retirement accounts. Most East F/O's are not so lucky, especially those on the E190.

Perhaps you missed this:

Point is, when a vacancy does open up, a west pilot will take that vacancy and settle in at his Nic position - which will more than likely be higher up. So with all the west pilots sliding in above east pilots, you can expect to stay at that particular bid position for a very long time.

 

[N924PS]

Perhaps you missed this:

Point is, when a vacancy does open up, a west pilot will take that vacancy and settle in at his Nic position - which will more than likely be higher up. So with all the west pilots sliding in above east pilots, you can expect to stay at that particular bid position for a very long time.

Point well taken.

Regardless of the Nic, you can expect to stay static for some time to come. No attrition. No additional hulls, just replacements. Gloom and doom scenario from Wall Street on the airline industry.

Management has U right where they want you.