FlyUs
Veteran
- Jul 28, 2004
- 610
- 45
Although they were several reasons why I voted NO, the biggest mistake was the length of the contract. A lot can happen in 5 years(which really means 7) and $2.00/hr increase isn't going to cut it
Replace AFA joint negotiations committee now
- Thread starter Bertha
- Start date
songbirdstew
Senior
- Sep 10, 2003
- 478
- 51
I am so with you on that. It was ridiculous. So many misinformed people is scary.
Onestep2flt
Senior
- Sep 27, 2007
- 386
- 155
I think blindly voting on something with a disclaimer to possible typos and paragraph reference errors is fact enough. They were scrambling to "clarify" the thing with side letters because of it! Another words it was not even the final version which made it open to much interpretation. Of course all legal documents are but at least vote on something in it's final form. There were a host of other "facts" that should have worried you. You could easily say the people that voted yes did not base there decision on any fact either. Second guessing the reason that 90% of the flight attendants voted is a slippery slope. I think that some of your coworkers from other departments could fill you in. I believe (if my understanding is correct) that the maintenance department voted a second time after a vote failed for that very reason. They were told they were "confused" on the issue and did not know what they were voting on. You must be careful or that could be you.
Regardless of personal opinions 75% of those that voted believe there were some flaws. This does not mean that everything in the agreement was bad. It is not that black and white. It was a tough decision to make. Instead of trying to figure out if Facebook rumors doomed it, I think it is better to take the opportunity to start presenting ways to improve it while that is still a possibility.
Glucose Intolerant
Senior
- Feb 22, 2008
- 443
- 264
There was more to this T/A than merely a pay increase. The proposed work rules more than negated the "so-called" raise. It got shot down overwhelmingly because it was not in the best interest of the entire profession. If you (specifically) and some of your pilots are content in selling out your fellow colleagues for a meager raise, Well that's your business. More like between you and your conscious.
75.4% of the Flight Attendants decided not to sell out their co-workers or profession - and that was in our best interest and our business. Parker's business plan and motives have been rather predictable the past seven years and so is the rhetoric.
The ratification of this F/A TA was never going to cost the company anything more than the current contract(s) because it was concessionary albeit "cost neutral".
Having the TA fail ratification by a landslide IS going to cost the company. Co-Paired crews and proposed duty rest will see to that - the "HIGH COST OF CHEAP" rears it's ugly head yet again.
LCC is going to have to eventually grow substantially or it will go away. Sans all the rhetoric and synergies, the only thing the U/AWA merger accomplished was to substantially pad flight times (to ensure performance based metric bonuses) and reduce headcount and mainline fleet size at two airlines. All while outsourcing mainline to the wholly owned regional airlines. It has worked for now - but no longer going forward. You can only shrink yourself to profitability for so long.
The employees at AMR aren't as gullible as some here.
To answer your question - Ill take my chances with the status quo. I for one am tired of picking up the tab for this unrealized merger. I am still better off besides it's not personal - it's business.
N965VJ
Veteran
Where were the LECPs in backing the TA? :unsure:
Here's your crew meal:
Glucose Intolerant
Senior
- Feb 22, 2008
- 443
- 264
And that was from the 24.6% that voted in FAVOR of this piece of garbage T/A.
Your right - "Junior high school ####" and you are being way too kind.
75.4% saw through all of this BS and rhetoric. No need to thank them now - but eventually you will.
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
Glucose,
Glucose said: "There was more to this T/A than merely a pay increase. The proposed work rules more than negated the "so-called" raise. It got shot down overwhelmingly because it was not in the best interest of the entire profession."
USA320Pilot comments: Your negotiated TA pay rates were the highest in the industry and had the best Work Rules in the industry regarding Rigs, Duty Day, best Hours of Service/Crew Rest and Scope.
The New TA industry leading rigs were:
- TA Variable Minimum Duty Period - 5:15
- TA Trip Rig 1 for 3.25
- TA Duty Rig: 1 for 2.00
Current East Rigs:
- Variable Minimum Duty Period 5:00
- Trip Rig 1-3.50
- Duty Rig 1-2.25
Current West Rigs:
- Variable Minimum Duty Period None
- Trip rig 1-4
- Duty Rig 1-2.00
After reading Flybynite's comments that "In my personal opinion, a lot of this was Facebook driven. Yep, a whole lot of opinions, with no facts to back them up. I'd lay bets half of the f/a's didn't even read the TA but instead went with the BS that was flying all over the FB pages. I've never seen so many misinformed people in my life. Used to..people would read the darn thing. Apparently not any more. I was horrified at the stupid, wrong, misinformed crap that was passing as fact on Facebook" I decided to see if he or she was right.
This week I spoke with 8 different F/A's on 2 different trips. None of these F/A's new what the TA said, they all voted "no", and based their decision on what somebody else said. I found it stunning that these 8 F/A's had no idea what the TA contained and they voted without reading the TA or JNC presentation.
Again, I agree with Mike Flores, Deborah Flores, and the JNC that "there is no better (Company) offer, the Company has been consistent on economics, the TA was the Company's final offer, and the Company is willing to reach a deal, but also willing to walk away if not within range of economics."
Therefore, what are the F/A's going to do now to make their lives better while working at US Airways?
Unless a merger changes the situation, I suspect your decision to remain status quo will make you a poorer person than necessary, your will work more days for less pay than necessary, and you could have a worse seniority list integration without DOH if the company integrates with AA.
USA320Pilot
Glucose said: "There was more to this T/A than merely a pay increase. The proposed work rules more than negated the "so-called" raise. It got shot down overwhelmingly because it was not in the best interest of the entire profession."
USA320Pilot comments: Your negotiated TA pay rates were the highest in the industry and had the best Work Rules in the industry regarding Rigs, Duty Day, best Hours of Service/Crew Rest and Scope.
The New TA industry leading rigs were:
- TA Variable Minimum Duty Period - 5:15
- TA Trip Rig 1 for 3.25
- TA Duty Rig: 1 for 2.00
Current East Rigs:
- Variable Minimum Duty Period 5:00
- Trip Rig 1-3.50
- Duty Rig 1-2.25
Current West Rigs:
- Variable Minimum Duty Period None
- Trip rig 1-4
- Duty Rig 1-2.00
After reading Flybynite's comments that "In my personal opinion, a lot of this was Facebook driven. Yep, a whole lot of opinions, with no facts to back them up. I'd lay bets half of the f/a's didn't even read the TA but instead went with the BS that was flying all over the FB pages. I've never seen so many misinformed people in my life. Used to..people would read the darn thing. Apparently not any more. I was horrified at the stupid, wrong, misinformed crap that was passing as fact on Facebook" I decided to see if he or she was right.
This week I spoke with 8 different F/A's on 2 different trips. None of these F/A's new what the TA said, they all voted "no", and based their decision on what somebody else said. I found it stunning that these 8 F/A's had no idea what the TA contained and they voted without reading the TA or JNC presentation.
Again, I agree with Mike Flores, Deborah Flores, and the JNC that "there is no better (Company) offer, the Company has been consistent on economics, the TA was the Company's final offer, and the Company is willing to reach a deal, but also willing to walk away if not within range of economics."
Therefore, what are the F/A's going to do now to make their lives better while working at US Airways?
Unless a merger changes the situation, I suspect your decision to remain status quo will make you a poorer person than necessary, your will work more days for less pay than necessary, and you could have a worse seniority list integration without DOH if the company integrates with AA.
USA320Pilot
Glucose Intolerant
Senior
- Feb 22, 2008
- 443
- 264
Rigs that would never be utilized due to company optimizing trips to eliminate rig.
Please.
Again you miss the point. The SKY is not falling. It was not about the pay rates. It's ALL about the work rules, conceding items that had no significant economic impact (jumpseat), and the contract's duration.
We can do better. Not one for making predictions (especially seeing yours and Usfliboi's) but I dare say we will have a contract in rather short order and long before any pilots.
Ill say it again: this contract probably would have passed by the same margin that it failed if ONLY a few items had been tweaked and the JNC had actually listened to the membership.
Again I can it explain it to you - but I can't make you understand.
EastCheats
Veteran
- Mar 12, 2012
- 1,944
- 6,141
GI, I never had a chance to respond to your buying votes comment since for some
reason the thread was closed.
You said:
"Glad to hear you can confirm that buying votes and legislation in AZ is not just a rumor. Thanks for the confirmation."
I'll try to splain to you how a democracy works but you most certainly would not understand because you probably have never been to a fund raising event for a congressional candidate. Your ignorant comment shows a complete lack of understanding of how the process works.
I hope you have not bothered with registering to vote or have not reached your 18th birthday yet. Either way, you have a lot to learn.
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
Glucose said: Rigs that would never be utilized due to company optimizing trips to eliminate rig.
USA320Pilot comments: Exactly, which is what the Rigs are designed to do. And, if the trips are not optimized then the F/A's get paid more. Of course, that cannot happen now. Now instead of having the highest industry legacy carrier pay and the best work rules the F/As will stay on bankuptcy wages and work rules for the foreseeable future, which I do not like. Furthermore, there are no new negotiations scheduled, the NMB is resting, the TA was the Company's final offer, and the F/A's are continuing to lose the time value of money big time while working more days than required.
Again, I agree with Mike Flores, Deborah Flores, and the JNC that "there is no better (Company) offer, the Company has been consistent on economics, the TA was the Company's final offer, and the Company is willing to reach a deal, but also willing to walk away if not within range of economics."
Therefore, what are the F/A's going to do now to make their lives better while working at US Airways?
It's not my contract and every other eligible employee will earn more in profit sharing because of the F/A vote. I just don't get the fact that so many F/A's apparently voted without reading the TA, attending a road show, or reading the Powerpoint presentation. Wow!
N965VJ
Veteran
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
O.K. Be poorer, work more days than necessary, have less retirement income, and less economics to use as an arbitration point under the McCaskill-Bond SLI provision if there is non DOH seniority merger integration.
Mike Flores, Deborah Flores, and the AFA JNC said that " the Company is willing to reach a deal, but also willing to walk away if not within range of economics."
Who am I to say whether it is better for US Airways' F/A's to live under their current contract(s) or former TA?
I just don't get why the AFA's leaders said, "there is no better (Company) offer", the majority of the F/A's I have spoken with never read the TA, and then voted "no."
So both the F/A's and the Company can both walk away from a deal and maintain status quo for an indefinate period.
Has emotion trumped logic? Me thinks so...
Mike Flores, Deborah Flores, and the AFA JNC said that " the Company is willing to reach a deal, but also willing to walk away if not within range of economics."
Who am I to say whether it is better for US Airways' F/A's to live under their current contract(s) or former TA?
I just don't get why the AFA's leaders said, "there is no better (Company) offer", the majority of the F/A's I have spoken with never read the TA, and then voted "no."
So both the F/A's and the Company can both walk away from a deal and maintain status quo for an indefinate period.
Has emotion trumped logic? Me thinks so...
That one's easy = You are NOBODY to say anything about "whether it is better for US Airways' F/A's.." That was, very properly, an issue that was determined by the FA's. Why is it so utterly impossible for you to simply show some slight respect for their group cohesion and decision, at least after the fact, whatever you think of it? In case it utterly eludes you; their decision has been made.
Perhaps some additional training in the proper subtlety of your "art" would benefit.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF-CkMpQtlY&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL856D4C81CC8AF256
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
EastUS1,
I know you're frustrated and if I were in your shoes I would be too. With all due respct, last I heard this was a free country with freedom of speech and this is an open message board. Yes, the decison has been made, but not one F/A has answered my questions. I prefer logic versus an emotional discussion.
I agree with Mike Flores, Deborah Flores, and the JNC that "there is no better (Company) offer, the Company has been consistent on economics, the TA was the Company's final offer, and the Company is willing to reach a deal, but also willing to walk away if not within range of economics."
Therefore, what are the F/A's going to do now to make their lives better while working at US Airways?
USA320Pilot
From purely clinical curiosity: What perverse, mental mechanism allows you to even fantasize that any of the FA's owe you, or your incessant BS, so much as the time of day?...much less any answers?
USA320Pilot: "None of these F/A's new what the TA said, they all voted "no", and based their decision on what somebody else said. I found it stunning that these 8 F/A's had no idea what the TA contained and they voted without reading the TA or JNC presentation." Your clear contempt rings through loudly enough to rival Notre Dame's bells. I'm sure it never occurred to you that some bozo pilot grilling them "might" be poorly received, and, just perhaps, they didn't share your sentiments as to their having "no idea"....
USA320Pilot: "I agree with Mike Flores, Deborah Flores, and the JNC.." = WHO CARES? The FA's are the concerned parties, and they are the ones who voted!
A wasted notion on my part I'm certain.....but: Here's a completely radical thought for you to ponder (however briefly): Consider offering some, however much you can manage, actual respect and support for your cabin crew coworkers. Take some effort to make THEIR work days easier, or at least more pleasant.....instead of proffering such inane drivel as: "...what are the F/A's going to do now to make their lives better while working at US Airways? "
