Replace AFA joint negotiations committee now

[Beancounter]

That one's easy = You are NOBODY to say anything about "whether it is better for US Airways' F/A's.." That was, very properly, an issue that was determined by the FA's. Why is it so utterly impossible for you to simply show some slight respect for their group cohesion and decision, at least after the fact, whatever you think of it? In case it utterly eludes you; their decision has been made.

Perhaps some additional training in the proper subtlety of your "art" would benefit.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF-CkMpQtlY&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL856D4C81CC8AF256

AHAHA, love English humor. I can't help but wonder if that was a video on right-wing, left-wing, no-wing USAPA supporters. While the cockpit door is closed they are intelligent professionals, but once they enter a union conversation or vote, well, out comes the village idiot.

Bean

 

[ggiby]

EastUS1,

I know you're frustrated and if I were in your shoes I would be too. With all due respct, last I heard this was a free country with freedom of speech and this is an open message board. Yes, the decison has been made, but not one F/A has answered my questions. I prefer logic versus an emotional discussion.

I agree with Mike Flores, Deborah Flores, and the JNC that "there is no better (Company) offer, the Company has been consistent on economics, the TA was the Company's final offer, and the Company is willing to reach a deal, but also willing to walk away if not within range of economics."

Therefore, what are the F/A's going to do now to make their lives better while working at US Airways?

USA320Pilot

First off... The work rules were slashed, vacation was slashed, sick leave accrual was slashed..... but yes the pay was raised but at a lower percentage for the east f/a's.... but that was the only gain. It was a concessionary contract especially for the East f/a's. We will just live with the concessionary contract that we have for sometime longer. Heck we have been enduring ours since 2005. So we can endure it indefinitely. Our contract was not even up for renewal until Jan this year anyway. PS. There was only one large pay raise at date of signing. After that there was one more 3 percent raise for the life of that contract. I am sure that many other's have a different opinion for voting no. But hey, You question the decisions of the f/a's voting it down, does a 75% no vote solidify your question? That in itself is huge.

 

[USA320Pilot]

First off... The work rules were slashed, vacation was slashed, sick leave accrual was slashed..... but yes the pay was raised but at a lower percentage for the east f/a's.... but that was the only gain. It was a concessionary contract especially for the East f/a's. We will just live with the concessionary contract that we have for sometime longer. Heck we have been enduring ours since 2005. So we can endure it indefinitely. Our contract was not even up for renewal until Jan this year anyway. PS. There was only one large pay raise at date of signing. After that there was one more 3 percent raise for the life of that contract. I am sure that many other's have a different opinion for voting no. But hey, You question the decisions of the f/a's voting it down, does a 75% no vote solidify your question? That in itself is huge.

Ggiby,

Ggiby said: "Work rules were slashed, vacation was slashed, sick leave accrual was slashed."

USA320Pilot comments: I'm not sure where you got that information. According to the AFA JNC there were the following improvements in sick:

• Current West: 45 hours per year at 100% (limitations on use above 75 hours, each day an occurrence, etc.)
• Current East: 60 hours per year at 70% = 42 hours of Sick Pay
• TA: 54 hours at 100% = 54 hours
• Every Hour in the current East Bank = 100%
• All sick calls pay at 100% Pay and Credit.

According to the JNC the East F/A's got 12 more hours of sick time/year and the West F/A's got 9 more hours of sick time per year.

According to the AFA JNC there were the following changes in vacation:

• Company treats as major economic item.
• West shifted to modified East Vacation schedule.
• Modified from East contract to earn 31 days at 18 years and 35 days at year 26.
• East FA gets to top vacation sooner

Ggiby said: "But hey, You question the decisions of the f/a's voting it down, does a 75% no vote solidify your question? That in itself is huge."

USA320Pilot comments: With the lack of F/A's reading the TA, according to my random sampling, I don't believe the percentage split is so huge. It appears a lot of F/A's did not take the time to read the TA, look at the Powerpoint presentation, or listen to their MEC President's/JNC.

According to the AFA JNC, "Left on the table if we don’t reach a new TA in 18 months Assuming we somehow get into negotiations again and it takes 18 months to reach an agreement, East Flight Attendants lose this:"

75 Hour F/A - $6,061.50
85 Hour F/A - $6,869.70
95 Hour F/A - $7,677.90
105 Hour F/A - $8,486.10

USA320Pilot concludes: Gigby, I'm not disputing the F/A's right to vote "no." I'm just trying to understand the logic. I know that many F/A's voted "no" without reading the TA and there are misconceptions. For example, the F/A's received industry leading legacy carrier pay, duty rigs, and crew rest/hours of service with a max 13-hour duty day, and Scope. The TA improves sick time, the West received a huge pay increase, and areas of vacation were improved.

I keep asking a question and not one F/A has answered my question. Again, I agree with Mike Flores, Deborah Flores, and the JNC that "there is no better (Company) offer, the Company has been consistent on economics, the TA was the Company's final offer, and the Company is willing to reach a deal, but also willing to walk away if not within range of economics."

Therefore, what are the F/A's going to do now to make their lives better while working at US Airways?

USA320Pilot

P.S. How many F/A's can afford to leave $6,061.50 to $8,486.10 on the table, which is actually more when you consider the time value of money?

 

[EastUS1]

AHAHA, love English humor. I can't help but wonder if that was a video on right-wing, left-wing, no-wing USAPA supporters. While the cockpit door is closed they are intelligent professionals, but once they enter a union conversation or vote, well, out comes the village idiot.

Bean

Seemingly infinite space for such drivel exits within the pilot thread. This thread is about the FA's and their issues. I respectfully suggest that all leave this area free from yet more of the same old pilot BS.

 

[EastUS1]

I keep asking a question and not one F/A has answered my question.

Sounds like a personal problem to me......Unless of course; it's a case of your having been fired, then regaining your job, and the sentiments regarding your becoming a full-fledged, knee-pad/chap stick wearing company shill are all justified.

 

[Beancounter]

Seemingly infinite space for such drivel exits within the pilot thread. This thread is about the FA's and their issues. I respectfully suggest that all leave this area free from yet more of the same old pilot BS.

I would be more concerned with replying to what USA320 just posted. If that is correct the flight attendants may have just made a major strategic mistake. If the the TA had indeed been an improvement:

1) If we don't merge you will not see another chance at a pay raise for a very looooong time
2) If we merge, the contract you currently have could put you at a disadvantage with seniority integration and also when it comes time for a joint contract.

Bean

 

[EastUS1]

If the the TA had indeed been an improvement:

Apparently an overwhelming majority of the FA's saw it otherwise. I support both their amazing turnout of 90% and the 75% who's will voted it down. It's THEIR decision to have made. Frankly; any US pilots interjecting the slightest derisive "harrumphs" after such a show of group cohesion, are so far past utterly laughable that words just fail me......

 

[USA320Pilot]

Apparently an overwhelming majority of the FA's saw it otherwise. I support both their amazing turnout of 90% and the 75% who's will voted it down. It's THEIR decision to have made. Frankly; any US pilots interjecting the slightest derisive "harrumphs" after such a show of group cohesion, are so far past utterly laughable that words just fail me......

EastUS1,

I took the time to read the AFA TA unlike the vast majority of F/A's I spoke to about the agreement. I haved not addressed the lack of merger protections that have been lost or the economic impact the TA's rejection could have due to the McCaskill-Bond integration, which could easily prevent a DOH Seniority List Integration (SLI).

In its roadshow presentation the AFA JNC asked, "What happens if there is a merger?"

• NMB process

– Single carrier determination.
– Representation election if different unions.
– Merger of contracts.

• Scope is one piece of the equation.

• How do we want to be positioned for a merger?

– With wage rates $5-8 dollars below AA and open contracts, or
– With better wage rates and work rules locked in.

Well now you have lost a better Scope clause, which is one piece of the equation, and you are economically disadvantaged to APFA and AA's F/A's when you present your SLI case to the Board of Arbitration (by the way your union has zero experience with this process).

How ironic it would be if the F/A's not only lost a lot of money by voting "no", but got hurt in the potential AA merger when you go to negotiation, mediation, and then probably arbitration for the first time. The last time the pilots had their SLI decided by final and binding arbitration they ended up with the Nicolau Award.

It's obviously the F/A's choice on how to vote, which I'm fine with. I'm just trying to get a handle on this because the "no" vote could be like herpes, it just keeps on giving if you get a bad SLI because you voted "no."

Finally, it appears you missed my earlier question so I'll ask it again. I agree with Mike Flores, Deborah Flores, and the JNC that "there is no better (Company) offer, the Company has been consistent on economics, the TA was the Company's final offer, and the Company is willing to reach a deal, but also willing to walk away if not within range of economics."

Therefore, what are the F/A's going to do now to make their lives better while working at US Airways or with a merger with AA?

USA320Pilot

 

[700UW]

Someone must have gotten rejected by a flight attendant.

Who cares about Mike Flores, he was a company man who lied to oust the former MEC President.

And he was "liked" so much his own LECs removed him from office.

 

[EastUS1]

I took the time to read the AFA TA unlike the vast majority of F/A's I spoke to about the agreement.


Finally, it appears you missed my earlier question so I'll ask it again. I agree with Mike Flores, Deborah Flores, and the JNC that "there is no better (Company) offer, the Company has been consistent on economics, the TA was the Company's final offer, and the Company is willing to reach a deal, but also willing to walk away if not within range of economics."

Therefore, what are the F/A's going to do now to make their lives better while working at US Airways or with a merger with AA?

USA320Pilot

1) What an incredibly pompous and absurdly arrogant assumption to even make, much less derisively post to the world. Is it your earnest estimation that the FA's are incapable of gleaning what's important to them personally?....without the burden of your "expert guidance" ? Words just fail me....

2) ""there is no better (Company) offer,.." And you KNOW this to be FACT via what special, personal "insight"?....nay, more like some "magic"? No matter....Sigh!..Well...you've my thanks for at least removing all possible doubts as to: "Unless of course; it's a case of your having been fired, then regaining your job, and the sentiments regarding your becoming a full-fledged, knee-pad/chap stick wearing company shill are all justified."

3) As to making the FA's lives better?...I'm now of the firm belief that many could immediately improve their lot by never flying as part of your crew......

 

[USA320Pilot]

1) What an incredibly pompous and absurdly arrogant assumption to even make, much less derisively post to the world. Is it your earnest estimation that the FA's are incapable of gleaning what's important to them personally?....without the burden of your "expert guidance" ? Words just fail me....

2) ""there is no better (Company) offer,.." And you KNOW this to be FACT via what special, personal "insight"?....nay, more like some "magic"? No matter....Sigh!..Well...you've my thanks for at least removing all possible doubts as to: "Unless of course; it's a case of your having been fired, then regaining your job, and the sentiments regarding your becoming a full-fledged, knee-pad/chap stick wearing company shill are all justified."

3) As to making the FA's lives better?...I'm now of the firm belief that many could immediately improve their lot by never flying as part of your crew......

EastUS1,

Instead of answering my question or discussing the facts you decide to counter the discussion with personal attacks, misinformation, and insults. Furthermore, you post false information about others, which is slander.

If you look back at this discussion I did not voice my opinion on what may or may be a final offer, which I do not "KNOW this to be fact." What I wrote was "Mike Flores, Deborah Flores, and the JNC that "there is no better (Company) offer, the Company has been consistent on economics, the TA was the Company's final offer, and the Company is willing to reach a deal, but also willing to walk away if not within range of economics."

In my opinion, instead of getting emotional it might be a better idea to evaluate this situation with logic versus emotion. Why? The former East MEC president, the current West MEC president, and the JNC said, ' "there is no better (Company) offer." Your union's leaders said this...not me!

Therefore, what do you propose your union do next? Maintain your current contract?

After all this is about a fight (I think??? Maybe???), where the F/A's will get paid much less than offered, they will have less sick time, have a worse reserve system, less scope protection, less merger SLI protection, and not have the best work rules and hours of service/crew rest in the entire industry!

With all due respect, I don't believe this is a pompous discussion at all. In fact, I believe it is a very serious situation with the potential to hurt a lot of people because emotion and intentional misinformation may have won out over logic and honesty. Moreover, some very bright labor people I know are opining the membership's vote could cause Gerry McGuckin and the NMB to "park" future AFA negotiations, which are not even scheduled yet. That would be ironic too.

USA320Pilot

 

[EastUS1]

' "there is no better (Company) offer." Your union's leaders said this...not me!


Moreover, some very bright labor people I know are opining......
USA320Pilot

AFA isn't my union, but I fully support the FA's and their decision, and am much impressed by their voter turnout and evidenced determination.

"Moreover, some very bright labor people I know are opining......" Indeed...such as WHO? I must note that any/all little voices in your head count for precious little, nor do your personal estimations of what constitutes "very bright" sound any trumpets.

 

[USA320Pilot]

AFA isn't my union, but I fully support the FA's and their decision, and am much impressed by their voter turnout and evidenced determination.

"Moreover, some very bright labor people I know are opining......" Indeed...such as WHO? I must note that any/all little voices in your head count for precious little, nor do your personal estimations of what constitutes "very bright" sound any trumpets.

EastUS1,

I assumed you were a F/A. I apologize if I was wrong. I have supported my arguments with facts versus emotion, insults, and personal attacks. I find it striking that a lot of F/A's voted without reading the TA. The F/A's voted how they wanted and now they have to live with the consequences by being paid less than offered, have less paid days off, a worse reserve system, worse work rules, less scope protections, less SLI ammunition, etc.

Personally, I'm in this and other debates so all of the employees can have a better way of life. However, it people want to shoot them self in the foot so be it.

 

[EastUS1]

EastUS1,

I assumed you were a F/A. I apologize if I was wrong.

No requirement for any apology there, since I'd certainly have no shame whatsoever with being an FA, nor do I see those mostly wonderful folks in anything approaching the same light as yourself. They consistently perform work well that I simply couldn't do. I've far less tolerance for directly serving some members of our little species than they need to have, just to do their jobs. That they can do so with any concern and evidenced grace...well...just flat out amazes me. I'm well pleased to be some voice behind the door, within the often less troublesome confines of "The Captain's Hiding Closet"..for any that recall classic cartoons.

Additionally?...Well...my perception is that you view them as a bunch of airheads that somehow need your "enlightened guidance" as to how best to proceed with contract negotiations. I don't share any such view....period.

USA320Pilot: "Personally, I'm in this and other debates so all of the employees can have a better way of life." Most impressive, as I've never directly chatted with a true messiah before....

Now then, as you're so seemingly fond of reasonable inquiry: Shall we again address the "Indeed...such as WHO?" ......USA320Pilot:"Moreover, some very bright labor people I know are opining......" Indeed...such as WHO?"

 

[Beancounter]

EastUS1,

I assumed you were a F/A. I apologize if I was wrong. I have supported my arguments with facts versus emotion, insults, and personal attacks. I find it striking that a lot of F/A's voted without reading the TA. The F/A's voted how they wanted and now they have to live with the consequences by being paid less than offered, have less paid days off, a worse reserve system, worse work rules, less scope protections, less SLI ammunition, etc.

Personally, I'm in this and other debates so all of the employees can have a better way of life. However, it people want to shoot them self in the foot so be it.

I think you're wasting your time. It's like watching someone beating their head on a brick wall, the temptation is to tell them it's not a good idea. Then you say something and they respond that they know exactly what they're doing and are offended. All you can do is shake your head and walk away.

Bean