Replace AFA joint negotiations committee now
- Thread starter Bertha
- Start date
SparrowHawk
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You missed my point!
If you wanted to merge with US and the easiest way to get labor costs down was to first go through the BK process and your merger partners is US, what attorney out there would know the US Contracts better?
Knowing the US contracts and his mastery of the BK laws would it not make sense to make AA's new BK contracts as close to the ones at US now? One less issue to deal with if a merger goes through. If not AA employees get a buzz cut and Jerry wins either way.
USA320Pilot
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Mark my words...the F/As will lose because of the time value of money and McCaskill-Bond amendment if there is a merger. But, that is the rank-and-file's choice.
Personally, I believe US Airways' management would have liked the AFA TA to have been ratified, but the company is going to earn more money because of the F/As decision, which will boost profit sharing for all employee groups and management's bonus plan.
Personally, I believe US Airways' management would have liked the AFA TA to have been ratified, but the company is going to earn more money because of the F/As decision, which will boost profit sharing for all employee groups and management's bonus plan.
Not necessarily, effective May 1st the Delta integration will be complete. AFA represented PM-NW FAs are moving up to DL pay rates, profit sharing, all without union dues. Many of the union FAs in MSP and DTW said "I can't imagine working for any length of time without a contract" and they haven't gone anywhere. This isn't my fight but it seems you guys are being misrepresented by a union out of touch with the needs of the membership. It's even worse than the TWU at AA.
Josh
1) You could fill in any labor group there, and it would fit in well with your long-established, perverse fantasies that anything less than complete, cowardly submission is somehow irrational behavior for anyone or any group.
2) Wow! What utterly astounding insight! Talk about the "Duh! Moment of the Year Award". Have you ever even considered just why management would like to close a contract at this point in time?...I mean really; that couldn't possibly mean that they just "might" be willing to sweeten the deal a bit?
"the F/As will lose" Umm Hmm....sure thing, especially if you say so. In any case; just exactly how much more do they truly have to "lose", and how should one ever know, if one chooses to NEVER put up any fight!!??
As for "Mark my words"???...Heck; I'm still waiting for that UAL merger to happen, as you virtually guaranteed so many times.
"But, that is the rank-and-file's choice." It sure is, and I'm very proud of the FA group for both the great voter turnout and their very clear expression that they've pretty much had it with the BS.
USA320Pilot
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If the F/As have a "clear expression that they've pretty much had it with the BS" than why work at US Airways? Why be unhappy? Why not quit and do something else?
Both MEC President's and the JNC, who sat at the negotiating table with Gerry McGuckin and Labor Relations, all indicated this was the best deal the union could negotiate. If so...what does the membership know that the union's leadership does not know?
This week Bill Swelbar wrote a compelling argument on US Airways and AMR. Of particular interest was his comments on US Airways' structure and the F/A's decision to reject a TA the union's leadership said was the best deal they could obtain. Swelbar said, "US Airways suffers from a stage length adjusted unit revenue disadvantage versus its legacy carrier peers – even more than American. But it also enjoys a stage length adjusted unit cost advantage versus these rivals – much more than American. Despite the revenue generating deficiency of US Airways’ network, the Tempe-based airline is producing very good revenue results relative to the industry."
"US Airways’ revenue disadvantage is offset by maintaining its cost advantage – and most of that advantage is very low labor costs relative to the industry. As a result, US Airways’ pre-tax margins are impressive given its structural deficiencies. The cost advantage the carrier enjoys cannot be overstated nor can the company hide behind the fact a significant portion of its profit performance can be found in lower labor costs. By contrast, United and Continental are only now beginning to navigate what it might cost to buy labor peace, particularly among the pilot groups. US Airways has not explored what labor peace would cost, probably because maintaining the status quo is more cost effective. Or did the flight attendants say in their vote that what US Airways could afford was not sufficient to buy labor peace?", Swelbar noted.
According to the JNC "everything is money to this Company: rigs, vacation, insurance, duty limitations, sick, rest, etc. The Company stated they have lower revenues than Legacy competitors and therefore wanted to maintain their 15% labor cost advantage over those competitors. That did not happen in the TA!"
So my question is what's next for the AFA since some of its members say "this is about putting up a fight?"
During this process the F/A's will lose:
• TOS a $400 or $5,000 pay raise per year for East F/As and much, much more for West F/A's.
• Other pay increase incentives.
• Best work rules in the industry.
• Best crew rest rules in the industry.
• With the pilots either using PBS or agreeing to PBS being split off pilot trips regardless of F/A input when the pilots eventual reach a new contract.
• Industry leading scope.
• West to East Health Insurance.
• West to modified East Vacation schedule.
• 100 percent Pay and Credit for deadhead.
• 100 percent sick at 54 hour yearly accrual.
• Increased length of active rate medical coverage when on medical leave.
• Modified from East contract to earn 31
days at 18 years and 35 days at year 26.
• East FA gets to top vacation sooner.
• Improved reserve system.
• NO FURLOUGH CLAUSE as a result of implementation of PBS and other scheduling/reserve/hours of service provisions.
• Stuck commute incidents increased to 3.
• Improved cabin cleaning rules.
• Commuter parking changed to eliminate existing East rules and allow any flight attendant to receive $25.00 per month in lieu of domicile parking
• Enhanced bereavement pay and provisions.
With the time value loss of money according to the AFA JNC the money left on the table or the time vaue loss of money is in 18 months, assuming the JNC somehow gets into negotiations again and it takes 18 months to reach an agreement East Flight Attendants will lose:
75 Hour F/A - $6,061.50
85 Hour F/A - $6,869.70
95 Hour F/A - $7,677.90
105 Hour F/A - $8,486.10
With DOH not a guarantee and probably not a possibility how do the F/As want to be positioned for an AA merger? How do the F/As want to be positioned for a merger? With wage rates $5-8 dollars below AA and open contracts or with better wage rates and work rules locked in or with wage rates $5-8 dollars below AA and open contracts or with better wage rates and work rules locked in when facing a McCaskill-Bond integration with no experience in this type of seniority integration?
According to Deborah Volpe, Mike Flores, and the JNC "There is no better offer, the Company has been consistent on economics, this is the Company's final offer, the Company is willing to reach a deal but also willing to walk away if not within their range of economics,"
THEREFORE,
If this is about a fight how are the F/As going to improve their lives, pay, work rules, retirement, and apparent merger integration by voting "no"?
I'm just askin...
Harry Callahan
Veteran
USA320 just because you're willing to work for bankrupt wages doesn't mean every one else is.
Harry
Harry
USA320Pilot
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Speaking of a merger presumably with AA USAPA's CLT Domicile Reps wrote this past weekend, "The speculation of a merger deal with AMR and US Airways has been a crew room topic since American filed for bankruptcy protection on November 28, 2011. Our Management's recent statements and actions indicate that a merger attempt is a strong possibility. It appears the question is not "if" but "when" and it is our opinion that merger events will unfold sooner rather than later. Beyond this speculation, what we know as of today April 7, 2012 are:
* The US Airways Board of Directors will be meeting the week of April 9, 2012 in their regularly scheduled quarterly meeting.
* We have information that Captain David Bates of the APA has made at least one trip to Tempe to meet with Doug Parker in the last few weeks without notice to USAPA or our pilots.
* Speculation from Wall Street analysts as well as Aviation experts indicate that there will be attempts by several entities (including US Airways) to benefit from the assets and debt reductions that will occur during the bankruptcy process at AMR.
* Numerous news and business articles have surfaced this week regarding the merger prospects of US Airways and AMR.
* Your newly elected team of Officer-Elects ventured out to PHX on their own this week, unannounced to the pilots, without disclosure to the BPR or current Officers, and without briefings from the sitting officers, legal, merger, NAC, or (to the best of our knowledge) any USAPA resource prior to their travel. Speculation abounds, and without the facts of what the Officer-Elects were doing, in our opinion transparency is nonexistent."
How does the F/As no vote on their TA, which is their right, help them prepare for a merger with AA with a contract less than they could ahve obtained and how will this vote effect their first ever McCaskill-Bond seniority list integration will most likely not be DOH?
How do the F/As want to be positioned for a merger? With wage rates $5-8 dollars below AA and open contracts or with better wage rates and work rules locked in or with wage rates $5-8 dollars below AA and open contracts or with better wage rates and work rules locked in when facing a McCaskill-Bond integration with no experience in this type of seniority integration?
* The US Airways Board of Directors will be meeting the week of April 9, 2012 in their regularly scheduled quarterly meeting.
* We have information that Captain David Bates of the APA has made at least one trip to Tempe to meet with Doug Parker in the last few weeks without notice to USAPA or our pilots.
* Speculation from Wall Street analysts as well as Aviation experts indicate that there will be attempts by several entities (including US Airways) to benefit from the assets and debt reductions that will occur during the bankruptcy process at AMR.
* Numerous news and business articles have surfaced this week regarding the merger prospects of US Airways and AMR.
* Your newly elected team of Officer-Elects ventured out to PHX on their own this week, unannounced to the pilots, without disclosure to the BPR or current Officers, and without briefings from the sitting officers, legal, merger, NAC, or (to the best of our knowledge) any USAPA resource prior to their travel. Speculation abounds, and without the facts of what the Officer-Elects were doing, in our opinion transparency is nonexistent."
How does the F/As no vote on their TA, which is their right, help them prepare for a merger with AA with a contract less than they could ahve obtained and how will this vote effect their first ever McCaskill-Bond seniority list integration will most likely not be DOH?
How do the F/As want to be positioned for a merger? With wage rates $5-8 dollars below AA and open contracts or with better wage rates and work rules locked in or with wage rates $5-8 dollars below AA and open contracts or with better wage rates and work rules locked in when facing a McCaskill-Bond integration with no experience in this type of seniority integration?
USA320Pilot
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Harry,
Harry said: USA320 just because you're willing to work for bankrupt wages doesn't mean every one else is.
USA320Pilot comments: Harry, there is no employee who wants to see US Airways and its employees prosper more than me. I believe its better to take a large bite out of the apple versus no bite out of the apple as a means to recover much of what the companys employees have lost. Today is different than before 911 and its going to take a few generations for employees to return to their previous levels. Here are the facts:
US Airways AFA TA vs. Industry Contract Comparison
United
UAL had very similar contract to USA in 2000 and until they went into bankruptcy.
In 2005 they reached a bankruptcy agreement that topped out in 2008 at $39.35.
Recently reached a TA that on DOS starts out at $43.73 and tops out at 46.86 thirty six months after date of signing.
American
In 2002 American topped out at $56.00
They entered into a concessionary agreement in 2003 that reduced their pay to $42.72 and gradually increased a top out rate to $46.00. They also had an incentive rate above 71 hours.
AA now in bankruptcy and the Company has proposed the top out rate at $46.00 and eliminates their incentive rate and almost all work rules. The outcome is unknown but bankruptcy is not a friendly place for workers.
Delta
Delta tops out at $45.74 but has no contract so that can be changed with a memo.
Continental
Continental tops out at $52.53 but has virtually no work rules (rigs, rest, duty times, etc.
It appears to me the AFA TA would have made the F/As the highest paid F/As in the industry with the best work rules and scope in the industry. Can you tell me how this is working for bankrupt wages?
I'm not interested in emotional arguments. Im interested in how the companys F/As can improve their lives because I believe youre going to have your current contract for a long, long time with little ability to change things barring a merger.
Therefore, Im going to ask my central question again. If this is about a fight how are the F/As going to improve their lives, pay, work rules, retirement, and apparent merger integration by voting "no"?
Grow up.
- Banned
- #41
USA320Pilot
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EastUS1,
With all due respect, I have asked meaningful and important questions. I will ask them again.
1. If the F/As have a "clear expression that they've pretty much had it with the BS" than why work at US Airways? Why be unhappy? Why not quit and do something else?
According to the AFA JNC's presentation the TA would have made the F/As the highest paid (legacy airline) F/A's in the industry with the best work rules and scope in the industry. Furthermore, there are other pay benefits that low cost airline F/A's do not have, which boost the F/A's pay even higher.
The TA provided:
• Senior Pay Premiums from $1.75 to $7.50 per hour.
If scheduled with a duty day of 14 hrs or less:
• May be required to remain on duty for 18 hrs in actual operations like pilots. if so, pay at 200% including premiums and credit at 100% credit for the duty period. Example: crew scheduled for a 13 hr duty day and to flight has a 5 hour delay in PHL. Such delay above 16 actual triggers Flight Attendants paid at 200% for the duty period as noted above.
CSD Pay Override:
• TI CSD B757 -$5.75/hour
• TI CSD B767 -$7.50/hour
• TI CSD A330 -$7.50/hour
Transatlantic Delay Incentive Pay - Delay Departing TI station:
• More than 10 hours from scheduled departure for reasons such as mechanical or failure of inbound aircraft to arrive.
• Triggers incentive pay of an additional 5+00 (P+C) including premiums. (Post PBS - 5+15)
• If delay is greater than 24 hours an additional 5+00 (P+C) applies including premiums.
• Every subsequent 24 hours triggers an additional 5+00
2. If this is about a fight how are the F/As going to improve their lives, pay, work rules, retirement, and apparent merger integration by voting "no"?
3. Can you tell me how this is working "for bankrupt wages?"
USA320Pilot
- Banned
- #43
Why most you fear monger?
You have done with this the IAM, the CWA and now the AFA.
Its their choice, let them deal with it.
And worry about the inaction of your own union.
Highest paid, no, and you dont figure in the increases of medical costs, the raise is a wash.
But your one not to let the facts get in the way of your propaganda.
You have done with this the IAM, the CWA and now the AFA.
Its their choice, let them deal with it.
And worry about the inaction of your own union.
Highest paid, no, and you dont figure in the increases of medical costs, the raise is a wash.
But your one not to let the facts get in the way of your propaganda.
USA320Pilot
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- May 18, 2003
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This is an open message board with people free to voice their opinions and participate in respectful dialogue. I find it interesting that people cannot answer questions and instead appear to operate from a mode of anger or as a deer in headlights.
In my opinion, the legacy airline industry has changed and it will take labor two decades to recover what was lost after 911 and the industry's restructuring. I agree with Mike Flores, Deborah Flores, and the JNC that "there is no better (Company) offer, the Company has been consistent on economics, the TA was the Company's final offer, and the Company is willing to reach a deal, but also willing to walk away if not within range of economics."
Therefore, for those F/A's who voted "no" because this is "about a fight" how are you going to impoorve your lives and that of your family by voting "no" on the TA? What's next for the AFA and its members?
USA320Pilot
In my opinion, the legacy airline industry has changed and it will take labor two decades to recover what was lost after 911 and the industry's restructuring. I agree with Mike Flores, Deborah Flores, and the JNC that "there is no better (Company) offer, the Company has been consistent on economics, the TA was the Company's final offer, and the Company is willing to reach a deal, but also willing to walk away if not within range of economics."
Therefore, for those F/A's who voted "no" because this is "about a fight" how are you going to impoorve your lives and that of your family by voting "no" on the TA? What's next for the AFA and its members?
USA320Pilot
SparrowHawk
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- Nov 30, 2009
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Well if they can't afford market rates maybe it's time to close the joint down? It would certainly address Doug Parker's desire for industry Consolidation. Just not in a way that he prefers and despite the Kool Ade drinkers protestations to the contrary he ain't Jesus!
People can as you pointed out react out of fear, anger or logic if they choose. Are the F/A's operating from an emotional or illogical place? I certainly don't know, however a 75% NO vote from 90% of the group speaks volumes to the fact that right or wrong they are now a united organization. 7 years post merger and they are now a united union with a goal.
Would you like to spend the rest of this thread with me pointing out that YOUR union can't agree on where to have lunch much less take on the Company. 4500 pages of grade school immaturity and you have the balls to criticize the Flight Attendants? 4500+ pages of "You Suck", NO YOU Suck", "Yes but you suck more". Very adult behavior don't you think. Given the actions of YOUR work group I think it highly insulting that you'd drag out the "If you don't like it quit" mantra. If I were a F/A and I saw you off property and read what you've posted I'd take your mouth and punch you right in it. Lucky for both of us.
Sometimes in life their comes a time when enough is enough and it no longer matters what is logical or prudent. Sometimes it's better to die on your feet then live on your knees. That's what courage of your convictions is all about.
In a prior post I said the time has come to pick a side! Which side are you on USA320pilot, Which side are you on? There are no neutrals! Are you on the side of those whose primary concern is the prices at the Supermarket or those who worry about the prices on the Stock Market? Tell us which side are you on?
