Pilot Pension Anger is Growing & Enormous

[PITbull]

[blockquote]
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On 1/17/2003 10:09:31 PM chipmunn wrote:

Biff:

4,700 pilot's who represent 10 percent of the workforce and 30 percent of the labor expense, provided 60 percent of the concessions.

32,000 non-pilot employees represent 90 percent of the workforce and 70 percent of the labor expense, provided 40 percent of the concessions.

4,700 pilots provided an average over $120,000 per year in pay and benefit cuts.

ALPA President Captain Duane Woerth testified before the U.S. Senate pilots have seen a 46 percent reduction in pay and benefits.

Pilot's and MSP are the only labor groups who cannot work overtime to reduce their gross pay cut.

Pilot's are the only labor group to be asked to give up their retirement. Management, the IAM, and the AFA are not and are not having their contract violated, which some people believe is outrageous since management came up with the modified ALPA pension plan.

Pilot's must retire by law at age 60, thus they receive the minimum PBGC benefit, which is discrimatory. Every other employee group can work to age 60 and recieve the maximum PBGC award.

If the pilot's are required to take a third concession, isn't it fair for management, the IAM, and AFA to see their pensions "distressed terminated" as well? Biff, since you continue to suggest ALPA take one for the team, why don't you suggest the IAM, AFA and management do the same? Wouldn't that be fair?

US Airways congressional delegation understands the issue and are closely working with ALPA to solve the problem to help prevent a liquidation.

Chip


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Chip,

Hell, how much did you guys make? No wonder there is a huge pension liability issue...my understanding of the "defined pension" contribution liability issue is that ALPA IS 73% OF THAT HUGE LIABILITY...

The most critical reasons the co. cited last year with regard to the perdicament U was in was created by the huge pension liability (ALPA); RJ issue (lack of them..ALPA again) which left the co. in dire need to qualify for a gov. loan guarantee and take advantage of the "gov. bail out" with a drop dead timeline of June 28th. Chip, I see the biggest part of this mess as an ALPA situation. So, if you have the inclination that ALPA contributed most of the relief needed (and you are such a small group of employees in comparison) I don't believe you will get alot of support from other labor group employees to "shake pilots hands" and say "thank you for saving us, and we feel sorry for you". For ALPA's huge contribution, pilots will get almost a 20% stake in this co. A Co. WE KNOW IS GOING TO PROFIT BIG TIME IN THE FUTURE. Your return on your investment will be nice way I see it.

 

[chipmunn]

Ilg30/7:

I respect your opinion and the job you do; however, you do not know what goes on inside the cockpit. Have you been there?

I wish you could go to the ALPA message board and watch the activity.

I have never made a post that is not honest and sincere and for those pilots who are informed, they are distracted. Who wouldn't be?

This is not the first time this has happened regarding pilot stress and emotion at this airline. In the early 90's the FAA came close to shutting the airline down and the only reason the Fed's did not was due to Jim Schear's "Restore Confidence" program.

US Airways pilots go through training on this issue every time they step into the simulator because human factors have identified human errors as the number one cause of accidents and stress is a huge barrier.

Pilot's are human beings and to suggest they can close the cockpit door and turn off stress is an incorrect assumption on your part.

Finally, there is no pilot at this airline who takes more pride in their job as a professional pilot than me. I take great exception to your insult on my integrity or ability. If you're going to insult me I ask that you have the courage to identify yourself instead of hiding behind a computer screen.

Chip

 

[savyinvestor]

[blockquote]This post is an indictment of USAIRWAYS and your pilot group. It needs to be forwarded to the proper authorities for there review. In fact, I may do so myself. I can't believe what I just read.
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On 1/17/2003 800 PM chipmunn wrote:

Some posters seem to believe that the pilot pension issue will be resolved, but I can tell you this. There is no employee who cares more for this company, wants the airline to succeed, and has communicated more than myself; however, my comments are falling on deaf years to many pilots I talk with who are acting on emotion.

What's important to recognize is that the Treasury Department is a voting member of the ATSB, the Treasury Department sits on the PBGC, and the PBGC is a voting member of the unsecured creditor’s committee.

After holding multiple discussions with the ATSB and PBGC, who both have seen the company’s restructuring business plan, who both have Treasury Department representatives, Dave Siegel came to the MEC shortly before filing the Plan of Reorganization (POR) on December 20, and told the MEC the PBGC would reject the company’s initial pension restoration plan.

The company then provided ALPA with the second pension cut proposal and the MEC ratified the modified restructuring agreement instead of holding membership ratification because of the importance of filing the POR on schedule. Interestingly, in the company’s December 20 POR Special Bulletin, the company said RSA and the unsecured creditor’s committee (which the PBGC is a member) were expected to endorse the Confirmation Statement on before the January 16 Omnibus Hearing; however, s strange thing happened.

Low and behold the PBGC then rejected US Airways restoration plan. At this point ALPA engaged the US Airways congressional delegation and the MEC believes the company has been indifferent in saving the pilot pension plan because from a financial perspective, “the company would be off the hook to meet its moral obligation to fund our pension”, a MEC member told me.

ALPA has made traction with US Airways congressional delegation as indicated by Senator Santorum introducing S.119 on the Senate floor, Senator Specter holding a Senate Appropriations Subcommittee hearing, and Senator Grassley agreeing to hold a hearing before the end of the month.

However, to date these efforts have not been enough to save the retirement plan and ALPA has no interest in a third major concession and the “gutting” if its pension. Roy Freundlich’s comments to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette today accurately portray the MEC’s sentiment and I am absolutely stunned at the level of pilot anger over what one MEC member told me a Tuesday’s Senate hearing that Dave Siegel “torpedoed” the MEC’s effort to obtain a legislative solution.

What’s even more concerning is that the pilots are very distracted by these events and are not focusing on flying, which the FAA understands with their blanket policy to increase air carrier inspections during bankruptcy, but the pilot distraction is the worst I have seen in my career. Everybody is “steaming hot” and the only topic of conversation is the pension plan issue and Siegel’s memo to the pilots fueled the fire. My concern is if both pilot’s in a ****pit are distracted the chances of an accident dramatically increase and war more likely and US Airways cash position dwindling, what would an accident do to the company’s formal reorganization?

I believe Siegel needs to obtain legislative solution now or the airline could be liquidated. However, before it is liquidated according to Siegel he said "if the legislative relief fails, we will be forced to file a distress termination of the existing plan."

In my opinion, this would transition the restructuring to labor unfriendly. Previously Siegel has said that two things he knows: You don't fight with your spouse and you don't fight with your employees.

Well, from what I am hearing do not be surprised if the pilots "fly safe" and we see the operational performance like in December 1997 when Sabre was implemented or similar to the United pilots summer of 2000.

If this occurs in February, how would this effect the creditor's vote on the Confirmation Statement, the interest of the ATSB, RSA, or GECAS?

Today Judge Mitchell set forth the bankruptcy exit timeline that includes a confirmation hearing on the reorganization plan for March 18 to 20, with a March 31 target for emergence from Chapter 11.

If US Airways operation comes to a grinding halt due to emotion, what would happen to revenue, how would employees like their job, and would the company receive a court order to exit bankruptcy or could the airline be forced to liquidate?

Today I spent a signficant amount time in the DCA and CLT crew rooms, as well as receiving 78 email messages and the emotion is significant. What's most concerning to me is that pilots are clearly distracted from their job and not focused on flying, which is just another reason why Siegel needs to be singularly focused on obtaining legislative relief.

Chip

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[chipmunn]

Baret4:

Baret4 said: Chip, Have you listened to Daves weekly message this week? He said "Terminating the currently pilots pension plan will NOT have a financial windfall for the company" Because they will have to replace the pension plan with another plan where the financial obligations are the same, but the payment plan would probably be more favorable to the company. That what is sounds like to me. No one looses anything???

Chip comments: Baret, yes I listened to Dave's message. The issue is the MEC and the majority of our pilot's do not believe our CEO and whether it's emotion or logic, the majority of the pilot's are willing to fight. What's sad is that Dave said two things he knew: Do not fight with your spouse and do not fight with your employees. Well unless something changes, we could see Dave's first fight with his employees if he abrogates the pilot contract and terminates the pension.

Meanwhile, In today’s edition of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Ron Freundlich, spokesman for US Airways' unionized pilots, called Siegel's statement an "outrage" and a "betrayal." He said it undercut the efforts of the company and the Air Line Pilots Association to persuade Congress to approve legislation allowing the airline to stretch out its pension payments. "It tells the government and Congress that it doesn't have to act," he said. He said the pilots had already agreed to $565 million in annual wage and benefit cuts and pension plan reductions that would save the company about $575 million over seven years. Freundlich said the union would not agree to additional concessions.

Seprately, Today the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review wrote "This does nothing to relieve our concerns," Roy Freundlich, spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association, said of the memo (from Siegel to the pilots). "Without the details, we assume what they are trying to do is provide pilots with severely depleted benefits," Freundlich said. The union assumes management aims to lower its pension contribution without preserving pilots' retirement benefits.

Finally, Freundlich said on the MEC update for Thursday, January 16:

President and CEO David Siegel sent a notice today to all pilots stating that the Company was actively pursuing a legislative solution to the pilots pension plan and, if that fails, will pursue a distress termination of the plan with the PBGC and create a different pension plan to conform with the funding schedule in its ATSB business plan.

While this alternative would provide benefits from two plans to many pilots, under this distress termination scenario your total pension benefit will be exposed to significant reductions even with two plans--with currently retired pilots exposed to losing significant portion of their pension income from the terminated plan.

Even with the Company saying it is committing the 30-year funding schedule to a new pension plan for pilots, ALPA remains skeptical of any Company-generated alternative.

The distress termination of the pilots pension plan is a windfall to the Company in that it no longer has the ongoing responsibility of a defined benefit plan for pilots. The Company will retain responsibility, however, for managements’, AFA’s and the IAM’s current retirement plans.

The MEC has not authorized negotiations with the Company to displace the current plan. Your MEC officers, Legislative Affairs and Communications committees will continue to pursue a legislative solution to preserve the current plan.

Chip

 

[RowUnderDCA]

It seems to me that extreme, unexpressed and unacknowledged emotions (like feeling betrayed, targetted, undermined, screwed-over) tend to find a way to seap into the way we communicate with others. People who refuse to admit that they have these feelings (or any internal life) tend to externalize... you know those cheesy personality tests that purport to tell you how you think... Intuitives v. Sensors, Thinkers v. Feelers. (Myers-Briggs is one, I think) 'ESTJ's' need to be extra careful.

Well, here's a good opportunity to practice exercising your emotions BEFORE posting sensitive material on a public bulletin board. THis is a pretty dangerous place and topic about which to make comments, or engage in 'objective reportage' or 'be a messenger' if you haven't spent a good long time making sure you've exercised feelings of betrayal, injustice and insecurity, before you post. I think it's best to express your feelings OR report your observations. Mixing them leads to reduced credibility and, quite frankly, reduced intellectual integrity. Nobody need that, right?

Frankly, it's all getting kind of creepy. Especially, when I think that maybe it's all some kind of p.r. strategy.

Good luck to all. And, seriously, take care of yourselves.

 

[OldpropGuy]

It appears very unlikely that a miracle, such as a legislative solution, will occur to save the pilot's pension plan as every other company would demand the same treatment. Unfortunate as this may be, one must keep the proper perspective of the possible outcomes to the situation. It is time to accept the obvious and try to move on.[BR][BR]There seems to be no alternative but to accept whatever meager plan that may be negotiated with the company. These are the most dangerous, serious times ever experienced in this business! [STRONG]If US Airways is forced into liquidation, everyone will be on the street while the PBGC will administer the pension and distribute the paltry benefits to those entitled as required by law, that's all, the end![/STRONG] If the company is able to remain in operation and emerge from Chapter 11, pilots will still have a job and the chance to maybe recover some of the tragic loss to their retirement plan. [BR][BR]Meanwhile, should the pilots choose some type of illegal job action, slowdown, sickout, etc. the company will still end up in liquidation. The pilots will still have no job or pension, except the PBGC mandated plan, but will have the possibility of the wrath of the legal system and further financial trouble, as the American Pilots discovered a few years ago.[BR][BR]As appalling as this situation is, it is time to overcome the anger and face reality.[BR][BR]To those that do not agree, that is your right. This is just my opinion.[BR][BR]Good luck to all.

 

[PITbull]

[blockquote]
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On 1/17/2003 9:02:16 AM cavalier wrote:

I think all employees understand the way the pilot group feels. All the cuts they have made was to save the company and preserve their pension.

Now maybe the pilots know how the other employee groups feel that ALREADY lost their pension.

However, hopefully a solution can be found and EVERYONE can keep on working and save their own money for retirement.

Good luck to all.

Good luck to USAirways.

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As a mechanic watching all my fellow co-workers hitting the streets and sitting at one of Dave's road shows hearing him respond to this question: Mr. Siegel, we have many older mechanics that if given an incentive they would retire and leave room for the junior mechanics with young families. Can you help us out with this issue? His answer was simply: No, we don't have the money for that sort of thing. Now here we are looking at the pilots pension fund problem, a very big problem. If the company didn't have the pennies, when compared to the pension fund problem, for early outs for mechanics, well then short of a miracle I can't see the company funding the pilots pension fund at anywhere near the level it was. If the pilots can't swallow like real hard, then I guess we will see the end of U and its long and very unstable history. There is no way the government is going to help out or in any way correct pension funds of those amounts. How do I know this, you’re kidding right?

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Cavalier,

You write that "maybe we can keep working, and save their own money for retirement"...
What money are you talking about? From wages over the next 6 years, or if and when we will be able to negotiate after..the far away year...of 2009? I can't even budget now for groceries let alone ritirement!

 

[propjok]

[blockquote]
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On 1/17/2003 10:49:21 AM wings396 wrote:

The pilots have been the biggest financial drain on this company for years and everyone knows it. Most of us lost our pensions in 1991 and now will be working for such a low wage that we won't be able to retire until we are 70...maybe. It was O.K. with Chip for most of us to bite the bullet and take the MDA or Express poverty scale. In the back of his mind was his BIG $$$$ pension, well kiss it goodbye buddy. Lets not try to fool everyone with how much money the pilots have already given up. If you cant live with your 100k salaries, then someting is wrong. Most of us have worked countless hours of OT just to make 50-60k a year. My heart goes out to you bunch of OVERPAID BUS DRIVERS........
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[/blockquote]


you know i of all people am not a big fan of the pilots at mainline but overpaid bus drivers i think not. what do you do res, ramp since when are you worth anything over 10 bucks an hour. as an airline pilot i have spent close to 100,000.00 on a 4 yr. deg. plus flight trainig i have worked for 3 as a cfi i have to get a medical every six months followed by a line check followed by a sim eval. overpaid maybee bus driver no way. if you think we are bus drivers i tell what next time you are on a flight feel free to just get up go upfront strap yourself in and take over.

 

[ilg30/7]

Chip:

WHERE, exactly, did I question your ability or your integrity???

Disagreeing with you....even if I strongly disagree...does not constitute a personal insult. Grow up.

 

[PITbull]

[blockquote]
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On 1/17/2003 9:02:16 AM cavalier wrote:

I think all employees understand the way the pilot group feels. All the cuts they have made was to save the company and preserve their pension.

Now maybe the pilots know how the other employee groups feel that ALREADY lost their pension.

However, hopefully a solution can be found and EVERYONE can keep on working and save their own money for retirement.

Good luck to all.

Good luck to USAirways.

----------------------------------------------------------------

As a mechanic watching all my fellow co-workers hitting the streets and sitting at one of Dave's road shows hearing him respond to this question: Mr. Siegel, we have many older mechanics that if given an incentive they would retire and leave room for the junior mechanics with young families. Can you help us out with this issue? His answer was simply: No, we don't have the money for that sort of thing. Now here we are looking at the pilots pension fund problem, a very big problem. If the company didn't have the pennies, when compared to the pension fund problem, for early outs for mechanics, well then short of a miracle I can't see the company funding the pilots pension fund at anywhere near the level it was. If the pilots can't swallow like real hard, then I guess we will see the end of U and its long and very unstable history. There is no way the government is going to help out or in any way correct pension funds of those amounts. How do I know this, you’re kidding right?

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Cavalier,

You write that "maybe we can keep working, and save their own money for retirement"...
What money are you talking about? From wages over the next 6 years, or if and when we will be able to negotiate after..the far away year...of 2009? I can't even budget now for groceries let alone retirement!

 

[chipmunn]

Slam&Click, you're to late. By the way, the FAA is already involved. Ask any pilot about the bankruptcy CBS messages, but thanks for your help. Moreover, Siegel has already met with the ALPA Safety Committee over this issue.

Ilg30/7, when you fly how important is it to have a focused pilot?

Chip

 

[chipmunn]

ilg30/7:

I understand that we all are under stress and that's my point. Today I spent time in DCA Ops and 3 hours on CLT Ops between flights and the retirement issue was the only topic, which was most of the time emotional discussions.

With all due respect, this issue was all that was talked about and pilot's are human beings. That's all...

We use checklists, challenge and response procedures, and other tools to guard against this problem, but pilot's are people with motions who can be distracted just like anybody else.

The industry, the company, ALPA, and the FAA know this problem exists and US is not exempt to the problem. In fact, the first day UA went into bankruptcy ALPA's Safety Committee Chairman gave a detailed address on their code-a-phone and website (very public forums) discussing this problem in detail.

I have no hidden agenda, but I do know what an accident would do to this airline and I will do whatever is required to prevent it.

Chip

 

[ilg30/7]

Chip:

It's the job I USED to do. I'm out the door.

No, I do not know what kind of discussions go on in the ****pit. But I have talked to my fair share of pilots through the years. Some have become good friends. I understand all about distractions... financial, family, company related, and otherwise. Your post seems to imply that this latest hurdle is somehow different than all the ones that came before it. That somehow the pension issue is going to make USAirways pilots forget their first and foremost duty: the safety of the aircraft under their charge. My entire experience with USArways pilots tells me that is not the case.

It has been a stressful, distracting time for all of us. Sep 11th, layoffs, Chap 11, more layoffs, base closings, hangar closings, RES closings..... the list goes on and on. I can guarantee you one thing: the stress did not begin with the pilot pension issue, and will not end when it is resolved.

Again, I respect your opinion also. But your agenda on this board is fairly obvious. Its is one I happen to agree with. I think we all deserve a decent pension. But throwing the 'safety card' out there as a leverage tool or bargaining chip is what I have a real problem with. We have all worked too hard to make this a safe, reliable operation. It does not happen by accident, and is too important to be used in such a manner.

 

[ilg30/7]

[blockquote]
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On 1/18/2003 1215 AM chipmunn wrote:

I have no hidden agenda, but I do know what an accident would do to this airline and I will do whatever is required to prevent it.

Chip
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[/blockquote]

Then we are in agreement.

 

[savyinvestor]

Is there a phone number to Dave Siegel? I can't find one on the USAIRways site. Thank You!