Pilot Pension Anger is Growing & Enormous

[767jetz]

[blockquote]
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On 1/17/2003 10:49:21 AM wings396 wrote:

The pilots have been the biggest financial drain on this company for years and everyone knows it. Most of us lost our pensions in 1991 and now will be working for such a low wage that we won't be able to retire until we are 70...maybe. It was O.K. with Chip for most of us to bite the bullet and take the MDA or Express poverty scale. In the back of his mind was his BIG $$$$ pension, well kiss it goodbye buddy. Lets not try to fool everyone with how much money the pilots have already given up. If you cant live with your 100k salaries, then someting is wrong. Most of us have worked countless hours of OT just to make 50-60k a year. My heart goes out to you bunch of OVERPAID BUS DRIVERS........
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[/blockquote]


I'm not even a US pilot, but pilot bashing comments like this burn me. Pilot's are not the "biggest drain" on any airline, but the biggest asset! They are usually the highest compensated labor group because they are the most valuable! Let's remember that pilots are the ones with the highest training, most experience, years of personal sacrifice and commitment, highest responsibility, and under continuous scrutitny by the FAA to maintain the highest levels of health and skill. No other group has as a dramatic effect on the bottom line on a daily basis as a professional airline pilot. One good decision can save the company tens of thousands of dollars. One bad decision or moment of incompetence can cost lives.

Comments like these are simply paycheck envy or even career envy. Stop begrudging those that have chosen a different, more profitable lifestyle. The US pilots have given back dramatically. More than any other group. They do deserve alittle respect and recognition for the depth of their sacrifice!

 

[Formatman]

It's really humorous that the "pilot pension anger is growing and enormous". It's not funny that something bad is getting ready to happen to the pilots...what's funny is the fact that you can look back over the posts on this board and see where pilots (especially Chip Munn) were constantly urging the other unions (especially CWA) to take whatever the company was offering in order to save jobs and preserve the company. Now that they realize that they are about to lose something important (which the CWA lost 12 years ago)...it's all of a sudden a big deal. I guess it's just human nature to do all the chest-thumping and flag waving until you realize that you are going to have to sacrifice in the same manner that others are being asked to...then it's "just not fair!" Folks, Seigel is out to get ALL of us...pilots included.

 

[BIGDOG]

Well,looks like the pilot group
well get the same retirement the rest of us will get.

************** NOTHING ********************

Welcome aboard on the flight to Freezeville.

What else does Dave have up his sleve.

I KNOW let's all work for FREE.

Wait a minute WE are...Next

 

[real world]

WN does not have a pension plan they have a 401K, get the facts first before you start speaking the virtues of the almighty Southwest.

 

[PSA1979]

I have been watching and reading for quite a while without adding my 2 cents worth. I am not a pilot, but a flight attendant. I too wish I could have been making the Very big bucks, but I chose my career years ago. Seems to me this over paying of us all started years ago when all the Big Boys were racking in the money. We too shared in the dream.Where else could I make $60,000 per year without any education or skills to speak of. Coming from a low cost carrier (the original one- Southwest was started as a carbon copy of PSA) I have seen excesses and waste for years. But I do remember not too long ago Management "forcing" parody plus one down the pilots throats, just as UAL decided to "buy out" their pilots over the fateful UAL/US merger. There are so many of out there that have given and given, one thing we don't need, is to give it to each other. And I don't mean concessions. Just because CWA has had their pensions frozen ( unjustly so) should we all tell the pilot group "see how it feels".As each of us looses more and we will with the threat of war so close, let's try and stick together, it takes all of us to run a successful airline. But remember, we only are as valuable as it takes to replace us. For the F/A group that is 7 days of FAA mandated training.
24 years and counting......

 

[us10]

767jets,

Thanks, and well said.

PSA1979,

It's always refreshing when a little truth surfaces on these boards.

 

[retread]

[blockquote]
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On 1/17/2003 11:02:47 AM Biffeman wrote:

Why should they? Your plan is the over 70% of the short fall, lets do the math, 70% of $3.1 billion is
$2,170,000,000 all the other plans combined is $930,000,000. Too bad so sad, guess you guess are getting a taste of what everyone else has had to eat for years.
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[/blockquote]

How about because the pilot group has been carrying some of the other groups for years. I have kept my mouth shut but if you want a pissing contest you got one. Rampers and cleaners should have been a part time minimum wage job. However, it was made into a career where some could make 70,000 plus dollars. Mechanics pushing back aircraft, cleaning aircraft, stock-boys and any other job created to justify there head count. You say pilots are overpaid! I have great respect for a real mechanic doing a real mechanic job. However, so much money is wasted keeping to many of you guys on the property. I have never seen so much chicken ***** than what I have been reading here the last few days. The only group I really think got screwed through the years have been the agents. Biffeman, you remind me of a steel mill reject that just loves misery.It seems alot of people want the gold ring but do not want to work for it. Most pilots have worked there butts off to get where they are. Someone wrote how our job can be learned on a PC. Like its some type of freakin game. It was no game down in CLT the other day. I can not believe the ignorance I have seen on this board. Chip, why dont you keep your mouth shut and just post the facts. There, I feel much beeter now!

 

[hack73]

Chip,
If the pilots would have stuck together with the other employee groups,maybe there would be some sympathy for them.Seigel is the second coming of Frank Lorenzo,he will screw everyone.This management team has no loyalty to its employees,shareholders,or creditors.The downfall of this company will be when the employees quit killing themselves and say screw it.

 

[pitguy]

It appears that that some pilots feel everyone else may be 'not so bright'. Some would say that is their typical pompous fashion way. It has nothing to do with class envy. Maybe some individuals just don't get it. I am getting it and I have a warm fuzzy feeling for Dave now. I am starting to like him more and more every day. I know he is doing 'everything' he can to lower the bottom line. This item is actually bringing moral up amongst the mechanics at work.


--Laughing is good for you (it is working wonders for me now).


--Mama always said what goes around, comes around.


--You danced to the music and 'now' it is time to pay the fiddler.


--I might open that bottle of wine (not whine) dated October 1992 now.


--Dave stares across the chess board and says "checkmate". There is no place to move and 'nothing' you can do. You have been beat.

 

[ResRepGirl]

Fellow employees and US Aviation readers,

I agree that the pilots have given more than the other employee groups. They have stepped up to the plate with a lot less whining and complaining then some of the other groups. However, the pilots did not agree to pay cuts and work rule changes out of pity or charity for the company or their fellow co-workers. They simple understood they had the most to begin with and the most to lose. We can sling numbers and percentages around on this board until the cows come home, but the simple fact is, when you're the highest compensated and have the most benefits (i.e. better pension), than the other employee groups, you should EXPECT to give more. Before someone accuses me of class envy, I realize you will always make a LOT more money then I do and for various reasons, think you deserve it. But like every other group, you should only expect to be compensated as much as the economy will drive and the company can afford. Industry salary and compensation rates of the last 20 years are a thing of the past.

As far as the pilot group being angry... welcome to what the rest of us have been going through. I suspect that the pension issue is one of those "too close to home" issues for the pilot group. Well guess what? So is outsourcing to res, and MDA/Express to the CWA group (among other issues). These are the issues that effect us the most and were the hardest pills to swallow. But you know what? In the end we stepped up and took our medicine for the good of the company and our co-workers. We understand how you feel, but even though you don't like it one bit, you are now being asked to do the same.

I will stand by you as a fellow employee as you work through the emotions of coming to grips with the new reality of the airline industry, however, the comments of "burn the place down" makes my blood boil. I have no sympathy for those individuals and I rank them up there with the CWA/IAM people chanting "full pay to the last day". Any pilot who unnecessarily calls in sick, does a work slow down or anything else to jeopardize the future of this company and the other 30,000 employees, is in direct violation of their contract and should be fired on the spot. There are thousands and thousands of pilots who are out of work right now, who would love to have your job even WITH a reduced pension. Yes, the pilots could make it ugly in the short term, but you can and will be replaced a lot quicker then you think. The job market is NOT on your side. I'm betting this is a gamble most of the pilots will not take.

Having said all of that, let the process work. I have faith that the company will work out a solution to this problem. Although I do not believe the boys/girls on the hill will come to your rescue with an easy fix. Will your retirement benefits be less then they were yesterday? Probably. Will they still be better then the pension benefits of everyone else. Most definitely. Your group, like every other group, has given a lot, and given where it hurts the most. But US Airways going under is still a possibility and this is one more problem that must be solved. I'm truly sorry that you don't like having your pension modified. But you don't have a choice, and now you need to figure out how you're going to make this work in your life, just like the rest of us did.

Respectfully,
RRG

 

[DaWoo]

Well said pitguy !!![BR]With the slickness of ALPA, I don't think the moral will last long. Suddenly Dave will come up with a miracle to save the pilots from doom and gloom. Specter loves to grandstand, Dave loves the limelight....Oh those flyboys are going to come through smelling like a rose again.....Sad as it is, they always get the goldmine and we always get the shaft.

 

[cubfan02us]

Siegel said if U did'nt reduce pilot's pension
expense they might not be able to emerge from Ch11
in March...

I say ,O.K. we can wait,what's the hurry?

We have been gettin' our asses kicked since Osama
Bin Laden sent the jets into the towers.

Let's slow down,and not make any sudden moves.
Give senators Spector and Santorum a chance to present
our case to the congress and the Bush people.

P.S. If Bronner doesn't like that then let him
find another investment.Also all of our talented
management and the other unions leaders can find other
suitable positions to match their considerable skills...

 

[Boomer]

Friday, January 17, 2003
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette -

US Airways CEO: Pilot Pension Payments Must Be Cut

Friday, January 17, 2003
By Frank Reeves, Post-Gazette Staff Writer

US Airways Chief Executive Officer David Siegel said yesterday the bankrupt company will seek to terminate its pilots' pension plan unless Congress quickly approves legislation allowing the airline to stretch out payments to the plan over 30 years.

Siegel said yesterday in a letter to the pilots that finding a way to reduce the airline's pension expenses over the next few years was a central element of the company's plan to emerge from bankruptcy.

He said the issue must be resolved before the airline's reorganization plan can be submitted to the airline's creditors, who must approve it before the carrier can emerge from bankruptcy protection in March as hoped.

If the Arlington, Va.-based carrier follows through on its warning, the 5,800 pilots and retirees covered by the plan could lose 75 percent of their benefits, the pilots union said.

Ron Freundlich, spokesman for US Airways' unionized pilots, called Siegel's statement an "outrage" and a "betrayal." He said it undercut the efforts of the company and the Air Line Pilots Association to persuade Congress to approve legislation allowing the airline to stretch out its pension payments.

"It tells the government and Congress that it doesn't have to act," he said.

He said the pilots had already agreed to $565 million in annual wage and benefit cuts and pension plan reductions that would save the company about $575 million over seven years.

Freundlich said the union would not agree to additional concessions.

The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., a federal agency that insures the benefits of about 44 million American workers and retirees, would have to approve US Airways' decision to drop the plan.

If it does, it would be one of the largest pension terminations approved by the agency. In December, the agency proposed termination of Bethlehem Steel's pension plan, which covered 95,000 workers and retirees and had a shortfall of $4.3 billion.

By comparison, the pilots' plan is under-funded by $2.1 billion to $2.2 billion, accounting for most of US Airways' $3.1 billion in pension expenses.

The company is required to make up any shortfalls in its employee pension plans, which for the pilots alone could balloon from about $57 million this year to $1 billion in 2004 before dropping to $800 million in 2005, according to union officials.

Siegel reiterated Wednesday that failure to reduce the airline's pension expenses could jeopardize its ability to obtain $900 million in federal loan guarantees and secure financial backing from an Alabama state pension fund.

The Retirement Systems of Alabama, which is providing much of the interim financing while the airline is in Chapter 11, has promised to invest up to $240 million for a 37.5 percent stake in the company once it emerges from bankruptcy. But it said the loan guarantees must be in place first.

The Air Transportation Stabilization Board, which oversees the government's $10 billion loan guarantee program for the nation's airlines, has indicated it will not give final approval to US Airways' loan guarantee application unless the carrier can reduce its pension expenses.

During testimony before a U.S. Senate panel earlier this week, Siegel said that for the moment, the pension plans of US Airways' other employees were not in jeopardy of being terminated. He said he believed the airline could craft a way to reduce its cash payments to cover the shortfalls of those plans without terminating them.

If the airline terminates the pilots' plan, it likely would be taken over the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. However, the airline would have to prove to the agency that it is financially unable to support the plan.

The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. would become trustee of any assets left in the plan and would be required to pay out benefits up to the legal limit.

Under guidelines issued for this year, the agency may not pay more than $43,977 annually, or about $3,664 per month, to an individual in a pension plan.

Since the airline filed for bankruptcy protection in August, US Airways and the pilots union have tried to persuade the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. to allow the airline to stretch out its pension payments. The airline feared that ballooning cash contributions to its pension plans would sink its efforts to make a profit in a few years.

But last month, the PBGC said it lacked authority to permit US Airways to stretch out its pension payments.

At the request of the company and the pilots union, Pennsylvania's two U.S. senators -- Republicans Arlen Specter and Rick Santorum -- introduced legislation that would give the agency the authority it said it lacked.

But that legislation is still in committee. And on Tuesday, Siegel told lawmakers that "any protracted legislative process" would be too late to help US Airways emerge from Chapter 11 by March.

 

[chipmunn]

Some posters seem to believe that the pilot pension issue will be resolved, but I can tell you this. There is no employee who cares more for this company, wants the airline to succeed, and has communicated more than myself; however, my comments are falling on deaf years to many pilots I talk with who are acting on emotion.

What's important to recognize is that the Treasury Department is a voting member of the ATSB, the Treasury Department sits on the PBGC, and the PBGC is a voting member of the unsecured creditor’s committee.

After holding multiple discussions with the ATSB and PBGC, who both have seen the company’s restructuring business plan, who both have Treasury Department representatives, Dave Siegel came to the MEC shortly before filing the Plan of Reorganization (POR) on December 20, and told the MEC the PBGC would reject the company’s initial pension restoration plan.

The company then provided ALPA with the second pension cut proposal and the MEC ratified the modified restructuring agreement instead of holding membership ratification because of the importance of filing the POR on schedule. Interestingly, in the company’s December 20 POR Special Bulletin, the company said RSA and the unsecured creditor’s committee (which the PBGC is a member) were expected to endorse the Confirmation Statement on before the January 16 Omnibus Hearing; however, s strange thing happened.

Low and behold the PBGC then rejected US Airways restoration plan. At this point ALPA engaged the US Airways congressional delegation and the MEC believes the company has been indifferent in saving the pilot pension plan because from a financial perspective, “the company would be off the hook to meet its moral obligation to fund our pensionâ€, a MEC member told me.

ALPA has made traction with US Airways congressional delegation as indicated by Senator Santorum introducing S.119 on the Senate floor, Senator Specter holding a Senate Appropriations Subcommittee hearing, and Senator Grassley agreeing to hold a hearing before the end of the month.

However, to date these efforts have not been enough to save the retirement plan and ALPA has no interest in a third major concession and the “gutting†if its pension. Roy Freundlich’s comments to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette today accurately portray the MEC’s sentiment and I am absolutely stunned at the level of pilot anger over what one MEC member told me a Tuesday’s Senate hearing that Dave Siegel “torpedoed†the MEC’s effort to obtain a legislative solution.

What’s even more concerning is that the pilots are very distracted by these events and are not focusing on flying, which the FAA understands with their blanket policy to increase air carrier inspections during bankruptcy, but the pilot distraction is the worst I have seen in my career. Everybody is “steaming hot†and the only topic of conversation is the pension plan issue and Siegel’s memo to the pilots fueled the fire. My concern is if both pilot’s in a ****pit are distracted the chances of an accident dramatically increase and war more likely and US Airways cash position dwindling, what would an accident do to the company’s formal reorganization?

I believe Siegel needs to obtain legislative solution now or the airline could be liquidated. However, before it is liquidated according to Siegel he said "if the legislative relief fails, we will be forced to file a distress termination of the existing plan."

In my opinion, this would transition the restructuring to labor unfriendly. Previously Siegel has said that two things he knows: You don't fight with your spouse and you don't fight with your employees.

Well, from what I am hearing do not be surprised if the pilots "fly safe" and we see the operational performance like in December 1997 when Sabre was implemented or similar to the United pilots summer of 2000.

If this occurs in February, how would this effect the creditor's vote on the Confirmation Statement, the interest of the ATSB, RSA, or GECAS?

Today Judge Mitchell set forth the bankruptcy exit timeline that includes a confirmation hearing on the reorganization plan for March 18 to 20, with a March 31 target for emergence from Chapter 11.

If US Airways operation comes to a grinding halt due to emotion, what would happen to revenue, how would employees like their job, and would the company receive a court order to exit bankruptcy or could the airline be forced to liquidate?

Today I spent a signficant amount time in the DCA and CLT crew rooms, as well as receiving 78 email messages and the emotion is significant. What's most concerning to me is that pilots are clearly distracted from their job and not focused on flying, which is just another reason why Siegel needs to be singularly focused on obtaining legislative relief.

Chip

 

[cubfan02us]

Nuts and Bolts,
Nuts and Bolts,

We got Screwed...