F/A Attrition ONLY
- Thread starter jimntx
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Art, reserve is not really an issue to me. I was just using that as a response to flyboy4u. As I said in a previous post, I took the job knowing that reserve was part of the package. I also took the job knowing that I will not live long enough to get off reserve at AA. Quite frankly, when I was based at DFW before I was furloughed I use to look forward to reserve months because I got trips I will never be able to hold on a line month.
Your friends are still serving reserve at 20+ years because of all the senior f/as who refuse to fly or retire. The company can not move more f/as into those bases because those senior f/as might decide to fly, and you would have an overstaffing situation. (Which would probably result in a fallback to domestic for the most junior f/as in that International base.) However, I have also heard numerous senior f/as at DFW and SLT express the opinion that they fail to see why life should be any better for junior f/as today than it was for them when they were on reserve.
All those improvements that you mentioned in previous contracts are being violated wherever possible by the company. And the APFA does nothing about it because the f/as they care about are not serving reserve. We get nagged (in a nice way) every reserve month by SLT management to put in our preferences. AFAIK, I have never had my preferences honored except in the breech.
Yes, I did send a number of suggestions to the negotiating committee. I was informed politely (implied, not in so many words) that my job as a junior f/a was to pay my dues and shut up. Of course, one of my suggestions was to raise the minimum flight hours for company-paid benefits to 50.I got the same response when I sent in objections to the line 2000 availability business that was nothing more than an agreement between the company and the APFA to put the most junior f/as in each base on reserve year-round and just not call it reserve.
First off, I do not believe that APFA told you to shut up and pay your dues. Did you possibly put forward suggestions that would have caused the very hardships to others that you seem to abhor? Every so called solution around here will always create a new set of probelms. And the MU FA complaining that they "saved" the good open time trips for reserve and AVBL would be a complete violation of the contract. MU goes first. If they actually did that, which I don't believe, did she file a grievance or just enjoy playing the victim?
As for reserve, my recollection over the years is that reserve is negotiated in every contract. AND....everytime it is put out for a survey, the current FAs are out to screw the unborn FAs. Now, with no hiring, it is time to screw the more senior FAs because their "misery" can't match your "misery". Now there is unionism for you. (sarcasm noted) Depending on what is happening in the industry, we have had 1 on 1 off, 1 on 3 off, straight reserve, you name it.
As Art has so eloquently stated, rules were much more rigid, back in the day and it is the more senior FAs who gave up other things, like money, to make working conditions and equality top priorities.
There were virtually no commuters because A: there were no unlimited passes until you had 7 years senioriy 9prior to that, it was 15 years seniority which meant FAs never got them because they were fired at age 32) and B: AA took a compass and stuck the pointed end at the airport. They then drew a circle to encompass one hour's drive to the airport. ALL Fas and pilots had to live within that circle. If you were caught actually living outside that circle, it was grounds for termination. I remember in either the late 70's or early 80's, AA moved the employee parking lot to the other side of the airport. They then told the FAS living downtown that they no longer were in the one hour range. Our new union, APFA, took that one on and we finally won a quality of work life issue. And, like Art said, you never knew a FA with 2 missed trips in their career because they were fired. Note, I said career and not year. If your phone line was busy for more than a few mintues, there was no call waiting, then you received a TM and were guaranteed an inquisition from management.
You can thank B Scale for unlimited passes and the ability to commute and the lack of terminations for Missed Trips. We always called that AA's guilt clause.
Senior FAs went 14 years with little to no pay increases in order to fix B Scale. Senior FAs went out on strike over the issue of B Scale. Senior FAs were to be paid back for the 14 years with the new longevity pay in the 2001 contract. Senior FAs had to give that up in 2003. I assume there will never be a pay back now. And like all FAs, senior FAs are having to work more hours just to make ends meet. We were looking forward to slowing down as we aged not adding more and more radiation to our lives. Perhaps part of our problem here is that we are not all 20 year olds anymore. Some of you were well into your later years when you were hired. Thank God we don't do meal services on every flight anymore (hand running them all, of course, beverages, too)!!! We would be dropping like flies in winter.
I served reserve for 12 years. I was hired at the end of a hiring spree which is not a good time to be hired. There were 2 furloughs that came right up to me and the first one actually went senior to me at many bases. Yep. The first ever FA furlough was done by base. We did not have any firm language based on SENIORITY for furlough, so they furloughed by base. You could pay your own way to move to a more junior base if you were senior enough to bump somebody else out. Ah, but remember, no unlimited passes so no commuting from SFO to ORD. APFA fixed that in negotiations to a pure seniority furlough. It was expensive but it was the right thing to do. Furloughing by base was much cheaper for AA.
One thing you never saw was a FA deliberately bidding their VC on reserve. That was considered a gross error or you were just the bottom of the list. You were pitied. No one would waste their vacation on a reserve month. Even as bad as reserve was. Now, so many bid their vacations on their reserve months that the reserve list has to be increased to cover all the reserve vacations. Same with the sick list. Reserve sick is higher than regular sick. When AA trends it out, they add reserves to cover the increased sick list. It is the perpetual dog chasing its tale. I'm not preaching here, I'm just saying. It is what it is.
Under the every new solution creates a whole new set of problems is AVBL and TT Services. AVBL was negotiated to help reduce the reserve list at every base. It IS glorified reserve. It had no other intention. It was for FAs who couldn't hold a schedule. It does keep the reserve list down. However, it has become so corrupted, I don't know if it is worth it anymore. The scam artitsts have taken over which in every category, is our downfall. The scammers. Be it on the sick list, AVBL, TT services, you name it.
Now, AVBL has become a clearing house for the bad TT services. FAs should NEVER pay for trips out of open time. NEVER. The contract guarantees an order for acquiring those trips. That is a negotiated item. Our contract even states that no one but the actual FA can touch open time. Some FAs now pay upwards of $60 for a trip. That is outrageous and completely self inflicted. FAs have created, endorsed and supported this crack habit. If you want a cause for much of the misery out there then here it is. The illegal transactions that the bad TT services do cannot be done without a FAs complete cooperation with the process. They must supply their passcode, which the TT services are not supposed to have, and they supply the money.
Good TT services do what they are supposed to do and I have no issue with that whatsoever. They are to facilitate trades (double TT) between FAs. They are doing a service which we pay them for. They are NOT to be in open time. They are NOT to park trips. But, FAs pay the bad ones exhorbitant amounts of money to do just that. The bad ones get FAs of ANY seniority to bid AVBL. They then use their schedules as a clearing house to suck trips out of open time and HIBOARD for that matter and put them up to the highest bidders for sale. Then, having fulfilled the "obligation" of the AVBL FAs with phony trips, AA loses the AVBL FA for the month thereby not having the heads they had counted on by the end of the month so...they have to increase the reserve list again. And, for those of us who are trying to TT with open time, there is little to choose from.
If you want to tighten the reins around here then get rid of AVBL. Many FAs have proven they can't and won't legally control themselves by operating within the COLLECTIVE Bargaining Agreement. All seniorities. Nearly every trip that I have to pick up to make ends meet comes from a FA junior to me. Most every FA bidding AVBL is junior to me. And, no, I am no where near #1 in the system
Not even within a couple of decades!Another critical factor is that we still operate under the antiquated system of 2 operations. Think of the possiblities of 2 separate bidsheets, two separate pay scales but one seniority for bidding and reserve. Wow. You bid according to your seniority and desires. Wow. If you don't hold an international bid like you wanted, then you can trade with open time or other FAs for trips that you might want instead. If you lose a trip due to a cancellation or illegality, then you can pick up from either operation. And one reserve list. And, no more paying to get into an international base. That is just disgusting and completely anti union. No more proffers. FAs would transfer from base to base, just like on domestic today.
Unfortunately, I don't know if it would ever pass a vote of the memebership due to fear and territorial attitudes. Shame.
Instead of constantly blaming someone else or continually undermining APFA with constant criticisms, we all need to look in the mirror. As a group, we have consistently demanded more flexiblity and reduction of reserve, yet we have voted down (over the last 12 years) things that would have started what we want today out of fear and rumor. All it has taken is for someone to start the Preferential Bidding rumor and the thing would get voted down. I don't think most people even know what we went on strike over with Preferential Bidding. The Bidding part was there but the MOST important part of it was the daily rate on VC vs. what we have today. THAT was and is the huge issue with PB. THAT is what every other airline has given in to with the only exception being APFA FAs who can still bid and be removed/paid for trips. With the illegal actions of some TT services, FAs are in essence paying huge sums for a form of preferential bidding.
My long winded point here is, stop the bashing and blaming. It does no one any good at all and continually undermines the collective bargaining process. If we would all truly enforce the contract we have, maybe APFA wouldn't have such a difficult time in negotiations. If we don't enforce what we already have, then what ARE they negotiating for? More things that FAs say they want but won't enforce themselves?
We are a very clever group. But, sometimes our cleverness costs us dearly. That's all I'm saying.
I don't like the I walked a mile in the snow with no shoes mentality but when someone says that we are in unprecedented times then I want to say, wake up, every day in the airline industry has proven to be unprecedented and will obviously continue to be! Whoever thought we would actually hire people in their 30's and beyond!! Change is constant. Keep up with it.
p.s. as for Rock Solomon knowing anything about furloughs, c'mon, really, at the very least, AA would have to proffer overage leaves and we never have any problem with FAs wanting and taking leaves. Rock is a sensationalist with nothing to back it up.
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- #138
If I were you I wouldn't bet the rent money on that statement about having no problem getting people to take leaves. I was furloughed for 17 months because not that many people took OLs when offered. So far this year bid leaves are so unpopular at my base that I have held 2 this year. My seniority is just under 17000.
But, then I'm only a junior f/as so what do I know. After all I didn't have to walk through the snow from the parking lot to the terminal with rags tied to my feet; so, I don't understand.
You all amuse me with your insistence that my objections to what is going must be related to reserve. (I guess because you all hated reserve so much.) It's so much easier than looking at the ridiculousness of "employees" who never come to work. If you didn't blame it on reserve, you might have to try coming up with a logical explanation of which there is none. Well, if answering what you think I really mean vs. what I actually write makes you happy, have at it. You wouldn't be the first f/a I ever met who doesn't like to deal with reality. The motto of the AA f/a corps should be "Do not attempt to confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up."
That was true before flight attendants had to pay for insurance benefits out of their own pockets while on overage leaves. Since that change, which I believe was one of the RPA concessions, there was a drastic reduction in the number of FAs putting in for OVL.
Thank you for stating why I dislike TT services so eloquently. They are scamming for senior people and the only one's who appreciate it are the ones who are willing to pay/benefitting from the scam.
Flexibility is a great thing to have. I agree with the posters on here, however, who have a problem with that flexibility if it means those dropping their trips are padding trip traders pockets and keeping trips away from the regular working flight attendants who don't have aspirations to do anything else other than being a flight attendant. I also object to some people who try to make it seem as though those who don't want to leave are ridiculous because they choose to look at this job as something to "get out of". I'm not pointing fingers to any of the posters here with that statement. We all come into contact with many of these smarmy, annoying, flight attendants who DO feel that way. If you choose to be offended by my observation than you most probably ARE one of them.
D
DallasConehead
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kirkpatrick
Veteran
The last furloughs (July 2003) occurred after the RPA was signed, so if that change happened in the last RPA, over 1300 FA's took OVL's anyway. If this change did NOT happen with the RPA, just when DID it happen?
How can there have been a drastic reduction in FA's putting in for OVL's when no OVL's have been offered since the last furlough?
MK
My memory is that there was a drastic reduction in the number of flight attendants who put in for OVL to mitigate the furloughs resulting from the RPA's adoption compared to how many took OVL when the earlier furloughs took place.
B
BigBangTheory
Guest
Veritas,
You are correct. The reason is now, f/a's must pay 100% of their medical benefits. I think we will see f/a's take the new OVL's, if they have medical benefits from their spouses or domestic partner. I think the furloughs on the f/a side will be minor if any at all. Besides the OVL's, we also have partnership flying. Also, with the new 737's coming on-line in early 2009, we will need a 4th f/a.
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- #146
Yes, the change to medical benefits happened with the RPA. However, Mark, don't forget that the active f/a corps is also 35% smaller today than it was when those OVLs were offered in 2003. Assuming an proportionate number take ovls, it would mean less than 850.
We are just going to have to wait and see what the final reduction numbers are. It's difficult to come up with a final number when the number is so closely tied to a moving target--the price of oil. I think that when the numbers come, it will be painful. Bearable, but painful nonetheless.
Are you sure that happened with the RPA? I took the first overage leave after 9/11 for 6 months. I kind of remember thinking about taking another one but didn't because there would have been no salary seniority accrual and I would have had to pay for medical. The leave I took was a beauty because it offered me all my passes, my medical, seniority accrual, and pay accrual. The only thing I was regularly billed for was my union dues. That's one of the reasons I find it ludicrous that furloughs don't pay dues yet they get to vote even though they may never be called back and most certainly have jobs somewhere else, while those on LOA's have to pay in order to retain that privilege.
Great post! I am curious as to how AVBL can be scammed now that the flying has to be "hard flying" to be released. As a former high time flyer, AVBL was the kiss of death once hard flying was required. It meant I would have to OE extra trips instead of 241 and that was quite a difference, money-wise.
What are the TT services doing? Are they parking the Open Time trips on AVBL schedules of F/As who want to drop then trading them to the F/As who wants to pick up? A double-charge, of course.
I can't stand the practice of having to pay to pick up trips but I can see why some people would pay to drop. It can be a big pain in the ass if you need to drop or change around your entire schedule. Being a trip trader is not easy, I believe the TT service in SLT has been sold 3 times now. While there is good money in being a TT service, it is a time and energy drain.
What was good about AVBL was the chance to fly trips I would never hold at my seniority.
As far as RSV goes, I'm in my 8th year and I'll take this RSV over the way it used to be. 1 on/3 off is a dream compared to straight RSV, especially if you are hired at the tail end of a hiring spree. You have 3 months to fly high time and make money if you want to.
As far as RSV preferences go, I just attended a scheduling class and if you have certain things you want, input those preferences only.
For instance, I used to be based in MIA and didn't want to fly out of PBI so I would input my preferences as MIA FLL PBI because I thought you input it in order of preference. That is incorrect. I should have just entered MIA and FLL.
If you want to fly afternoon or evening only input PM1 and PM2, leave am out of the mix entirely and you are more likely to be given your preference.
Preferences don't work as well at small bases because there are fewer trips in Open Time.
As far as the schedule reduction, it sucks but I think it is prudent. Short term pain for long term gain. I say this as a someone who will probably be furloughed. I would rather be furloughed than have a further erosion of work rules. My issue is I desperately need the insurance but I have no control over what will happen. I refuse to drive myself crazy and give myself an ulcer like I did in 2003. *** Worry is the illusion of control. ***
The recent recalls are especially in my thoughts.
Coop
SLT
I dont know the exact reasoning, understand though one is voluntary and the other is not. The OVL is a union negotiated benefit.
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