Flight Attendant Attrition Rate

[Garfield1966]

Kirk,

Yes you are right, to a point. We open Opt II when we are short or the Rsv hours are to high. The thing is, AA will not hire if no one picks up Opt II which is far less than I think you realize. What will happen is Crew skd will have to bust their butt just that much more, find a move and extend someones flying and piss someone off. A flight will go out min staff and that will be that.

Look, we would all like to see the people who got laid off but the reality of the economy and the industry says that is not going to happen soon if at all. We are all learning to do more with less. We were over staffed before the RPA, we cannot go back to that and survive.

I cannot wait till the contracts come up for negotiation. Everyone will want back what they lost. I sure as hell hope that does not happen. I hope you all are smart enough to ask for just a little, and that the company is smart enough to just give a little. I don’t see that happening though.

 

[bigdawgs]

jimntx,

I was not trying to "pick nits". The reason I mentioned the performance vs. the chargeable offenses is simply because the FSMs are NOT allowed to take the performance issues into account while disciplining for the attendance chargeable instances. Unless something is different with the upcoming attendance policy changes.

I am not condoning anyone who acted egregiously with regard to calling in sick for the helluva it or those that can't seem to make it to the airport at the appropriate time, or those that have missed many trips.

 

[kirkpatrick]

Mark, if the sick list is unreasonably high, trips won't go green, because the reserves are needed to cover for sick time, not open time due to trip drops.

[post="183027"][/post]​

Of course. That was my point. I was responding to a post that suggested that allowing us to drop trips into open time was inefficient and necessitated additional headcount. I intended to point out that the company has complete control over this. They don't set green lights unless they have the available manpower, and when they do, the ability to drop actually helps them, since it enable them to utilize reserves when they otherwise might not be able to, and have to pay them their guarantee even if they don' t fly it.

MK

 

[LiveInAHotel]

POST DELETED

L.I.A.H, check your PM.....You're gonna love it.

 

[Skyyggoddess]

I cannot wait till the contracts come up for negotiation. Everyone will want back what they lost. I sure as hell hope that does not happen. I hope you all are smart enough to ask for just a little, and that the company is smart enough to just give a little. I don?t see that happening though.

[post="183034"][/post]​

Garfield
This RPA is illegal...and yes we can prove it and yes we will prove it. But beyond that, F/A's have no problem doing their part in "fair shared sacrifice." Look carefully at the amounts each labor group was asked to give up. What elite management gave up in the illegal RPA was laughable compared to what the unions gave. So, maybe this next go around we could just ask management to bring themselves to our level, plus make up for the past couple of years when they have lived off of the sweat of those that took the biggest hits with this illegal RPA. We'll be happy when bringing our company back to profitability is done fairly, honestly and the hardships are equally shared.

 

[L1011Ret]

If the actions of APFA and AA were illegal, and settlement or a jury trial occur, what do you imagine the outcome?

 

[Skyyggoddess]

Ummm. That is a great question. I would hope that there would be a snap-back to our CBA that we had in effect in April of 2003 and that new negotiations would take place...but the starting point would be where we were, not where we are now.

I think it is very likely that John Ward will go to prison on the RICO (racketeering) charges. As discoveries are made, additional RICO charges can be filed (the Amended Complaint can be amended again and again.) So, it is very possible that there are others besides JW who could be charged with RICO charges. I believe there are several people that this could happen to (AMR & APFA).

What people don't understand is that this is the most important labor case in probably a decade. It could well go all the way to the Supreme Court.

I think AMR will end up paying out a lot. If they are still in bad financial shape at the time, then negotiating will key to everything. I know you have probably read the Amended Complaint filed in federal court. If so, then you have seen what the attorneys are asking. This will most likely end up being a class action suit for all of the F/A's and the F/A's should be compensated for having an illegal contract foisted on them.

I would be interested in hearing what you think the outcome will be and what it should be.

 

[L1011Ret]

Racketeering is a serious Federal charge. I'm not familiar enough with the evidence to even have an opinion of my own. But I was left with the impression at the TWA injunction hearing that JW was not to honest as compared to J. Nikides who also testified. Snapback to the old wages and rules upon a decision is one thing. Back pay if awarded could be an entirely different issue and more damaging to AA and APFA. In most settlements neither party is happy, a good lawyer will tell you that you are never made whole. Where are they in the process in terms of exchanging documents, taking depositions and having summary judgment or motion to dismiss motions put forward by defandants? Do you think this case could effect the TWA F/As seniority case? Thanks for your info.

 

[Skyyggoddess]

If you go to this site, you can click on the documents button. All of the filed documents that are public record are posted here. They are in pdf format. The Amended Complaint is a large file (about 86 page). I recommend printing it up and reading it like a John Grisham novel. It will blow you away once you get past the list of plaintiffs, etc. The charges that are made are astounding.

http://www.SaveAPFA.builderspot.com

As for the TWA seniority issue...I'm not sure how our suit will affect the TWA suit. For the moment (for clerical reasons), several of the suits are lumped together. The TWA suit is noted in the Amended Complaint. These will be split off from one another down the road...probably after some discovery.

I do not believe depositions have been taken yet. I think some scheduling was done this week. This will take a while. Anyone involved has to know that this is a lot about righting a wrong so that it will never happen again and having some form of justice.

I agree with you that rights are never completely restored. In a way, this is done for future generations.

I do not know many of the facts re: the TWA suit. I would like to see life restored to April 14, 2003 (as much as possible). If that were to happen, I would think that would be a benefit for the TWA F/A's especially in that many were not furloughed yet.

 

[L1011Ret]

Indeed restoration of the previous contract would benefit many in addition to the $75000 award to each F/A and springback to wages in effect at the time. Looking at the briefs it seems that AA and APFA think the RICO charges and other charges are pre-empted by the RLA. That is going to be one big issue, a tremendously big issue whether some of these charges are pre-empted by the RLA. If the state and federal claims made for damages are not pre-empted by the RLA, the outcome is going to be very interesting. Second, collusion is hard to prove. If each party says they were acting entirely independently and there are no witnesses to the collusion, relying on a similarity of behaviors may be explained away easily. We know APFA and AA will try for motions to dismiss, they already have, and the Judges decision on those motions will most likely be a big indication of the strength of your case. And then whether it is proved to the satisfaction of a jury. Even if you diden't win, it is still a win for APFA members. Cannot wait to hear the Judges ruling on the motion to dismiss.

 

[Garfield1966]

Indeed restoration of the previous contract would benefit many in addition to the $75000 award to each F/A and springback to wages in effect at the time. Looking at the briefs it seems that AA and APFA think the RICO charges and other charges are pre-empted by the RLA. That is going to be one big issue, a tremendously big issue whether some of these charges are pre-empted by the RLA. If the state and federal claims made for damages are not pre-empted by the RLA, the outcome is going to be very interesting. Second, collusion is hard to prove. If each party says they were acting entirely independently and there are no witnesses to the collusion, relying on a similarity of behaviors may be explained away easily. We know APFA and AA will try for motions to dismiss, they already have, and the Judges decision on those motions will most likely be a big indication of the strength of your case. And then whether it is proved to the satisfaction of a jury. Even if you diden't win, it is still a win for APFA members. Cannot wait to hear the Judges ruling on the motion to dismiss.

[post="184388"][/post]​

Just currious, if this wereto come to pass, Would AA beable to file BK and avoid the payments?

 

[Skyyggoddess]

Just currious, if this wereto come to pass, Would AA beable to file BK and avoid the payments?

[post="184539"][/post]​

Garfield, they could do this....or they could declare BK and blame it all on us. That would be a scenario that I could see AMR doing...rather than take any responsibility, they could use the suits as a scapegoat, when in reality, the reason for BK would be lousy management for years, high fuel prices and 911.

The attorneys do feel this is a strong case.

 

[peasant]

Heh, what law firm would say a case is weak...? Having read the complaint, I find it difficult to tie in AMR/AA with it, apart from circumstantially. Yes, APFA looked to behave illegally, but unless there is clear evidence that this was done at the behest of AA, don't see why AA should be held liable for APFA's breach of their own constitution...

Given that a concessionary contract would have been imposed whatever outcome of the vote - just by a different mechanism, can't see a judge ordering back pay.

But, I'm not a lawyer, so... Will follow this case though

 

[Skyyggoddess]

Peasant,
These lawyers are paying for this suit with their own money. Of course, they hope to recoup one day...but it will cost millions to pursue. They would not spend that kind of money or years of their time if they didn't believe in this case. I believe both AMR and APFA banked on that. They never thought F/A's would be able to follow through. And the reason that the lawyers are paying for this suit up front is that THEY DO HAVE THE EVIDENCE and that was even before discovery. Can you imagine what will happen during discovery and depositions?


Its hard for me to believe that you don't see AMR's complicity...but that's why we'll have a jury trial. People see things differently.

 

[skyhoosier]

Just currious, if this wereto come to pass, Would AA beable to file BK and avoid the payments?

[post="184539"][/post]​

Oh yes, that is exactly what Ichan did when the Flight Attendants under IFFA sued and won, and won appeal after appeal. When he ran out of appeals, he declared BK and we joined all the other creditors, as the number one creditor owed the most. We got several checks (4?) over these last 12 years and I believe there is one final one, but nothing like what the original figure was.