AMFA getting it done

[1AA]

I am not conceding anything, the TWU has done enough of that over the yrs here at AA. Now AFW is closed, where did all those jobs GO? The twu let AA close AFW forced families lives to be disrupted.

As we replace the fleet here at AA, be honest and tell us all what is going to happen to the work,the heavy checks, as we shed the older aircraft? What about the 757 seats being done outside AA. The work being done in South America. As we shed the MD80's and the 757 and the 767-200.

Where are those jobs going to go? O/s tell us what is the TWU's plan for the rest of us who work the line? Are we going to take another pay cut to make you look good, keep them on payroll but take money and vacation, holidays, medical and what ever else you feel will promote the job saving at aa. I would rather get laid off due to seniority and wait for the recall after a while at least when and if I decide to come back the job would be worth it.

BUT NO YOU and the other TWU Intl Officers and the kiss a$%TWU coolaide drinkers in Tulsa think its better to keep guys on the job cutting $$$$ from the rest of us. That is why we guys who support AMFA and want you Gone.

We don't want the Tulsa guys to loose their job, but we wanted a regional pay to work in the high dollar market cities but NO, NO, it is better for the T-town boys who have a $40k cost of living dictate to the $80K cost of living city mechanics.

"Thats why" , it has NOTHING to do with AMFA, it is all the concessions you guys have given up over all the yrs. The airlines are doing away with O/H bases, and all the unions are now falling to the companies cuts.

So all your spinning that AMFA is at fault, Nothing but a lie. IAM/IBT/TWU and amfa all have failed in this to stop the outsourcing of american jobs.

Why don't you guys get together and use all the power of labor to force the FAA and the DOT to stop the american jobs from going overseas, save the aircraft mechanics.

Don't tell us you are and that you lobbied to make those changes. Show us.. Tell your buddy Hoffa and Little to make that deal instead of selling us short. Oh by the way get the IAM to help and the AFL-CIO. Isn't that why we pay dues, or is it for you and Bobby G. and the others at the TWU Intl to get rich?

None of these cuts effect you,, so you really don't care. That's why we want you GONE.

AMFA at AA​

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Now wait a second, the United IAM 141M membership voted down the TA in 2002. There were 13,000 members when the TA was voted down because the M&R membership wanted to continue fighting. The AMFA organizers campaigned on the premise that they would get a better deal than the IAM. The CBA language in the AMFA "better deal" is no better than the term sheet handed to the IAM on page 4.

http://www.unitedafa...docs/iam141.pdf

So how did the IAM agree to more outsourcing when under the 1113c process of BK the IAM 141M bargained for M&R, the membership voted it down, voted in AMFA, and then AMFA agrees to the terms in the 1113c term sheet and then blames the IAM for outsourcing? Grow some huevos and own that AMFA was the collective bargaining agent that brought back a TA that had the same language that the IAM negotiated previously. Keep lying and blaming others.

When AMFA finally had the TA voted and signed only 6,800 M&R remained. 50% job loss. Sweet!

That professional negotiator philosophy sure showed those industrial union negotiators from the IAM how it's done!

Thank you for once again demonstrating your complete and utter ignorance of UAL M&R history and bargaining.

In 2002 - UNDER THE IAM - we did vote down the first concessionary TA.

In 2003 - UNDER THE IAM - we took concessions and IND &OAK were closed

Again, just one of many news articles that coved the closures of UALs IND & OAK bases - UNDER THE IAM

http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-0305060269may06,0,3516394.story

As before, you can try to spin it any way you like, you're a liar.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

So in other words they were able to get their guys money by switching from Domestic MROs to foreign ones?

Heres the kicker for us, we were not given credit for cheaper foreign outsourcing, instead we only got the savings for outsourcing at the Domestic rates (that were inflated because they claimed they would have to pay a premium due to restricted capacity) even though AA decided to send much of the work overseas. So in other words AA was able to maximize what they took from us while also maximizing the savings from outsourcing without giving us credit for it.

Correct, although it would be better phrased as .....we got credit and took fewer cuts. We saved money in the end, yes.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

The AMFA CBA at UA was a 6 year, 8 month agreement. It had two, TWO wage concessions in it from BK of 13% and another 3.9%, outsourcing of all airframe overhaul except three lines, and a raise of 7.5% over the nearly 7 year agreement. Is that the snap back you were hoping for? Yeah AMFA, they are awesome. All the AMFA satin jackets in the world can't make up for 50% job loss due to outsourcing, close to 16% wage cut on top, loss of retiree medical, termination of the pension, and a 6% pay raise for a five year contract.

At AA the TWU negotiated no job loss due to outsourcing, a 17.5% wage cut, continuation of retiree medical, and continued accrual of the pension plan. Keeping the pension, retiree medical, and no outsourcing of any work in exchange for 1.5% more of a cut over with a almost two year shorter contract duration is way better than the professional negotiators of AMFA got at UA.

So another AMFA organizer is conceding overhaul jobs so the line can get a raise. Sacrificing overhaul, it's the AMFA way.

The AMFA CBA at UAL was a 6 year 8 month agreement?

And again you expose yourself as an ignorant liar.

Directly fron the AMFA 2005-2009 agreement

ARTICLE XXVII
EFFECTIVE DATE AND DURATION

This Agreement shall become effective January 1, 2005 except as otherwise provided,
and shall continue in full force and effect through December 31, 2009 and shall thereafter
renew itself yearly without change each January 1st unless written notice of intended
change is served in accordance with Title I, Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act by either
party at least thirty (30) but not more than two hundred and seventy (270) days prior to
December 31, 2009 or December 31 of any year thereafter. If such notice is served,
negotiations will commence no more than 30 days after service. If a new tentative agreement
is not reached by August 1, 2009 (or any August 1 thereafter, if applicable), the
parties will jointly invoke the mediation services of the National Mediation Board under
Section 5 of the Act.

http://teamsterssfo.com/items/2005_amfa_UAL_CBA.pdf

Page 121

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

The AMFA CBA at UA was a 6 year, 8 month agreement. It had two, TWO wage concessions in it from BK of 13% and another 3.9%, outsourcing of all airframe overhaul except three lines, and a raise of 7.5% over the nearly 7 year agreement. Is that the snap back you were hoping for? Yeah AMFA, they are awesome. All the AMFA satin jackets in the world can't make up for 50% job loss due to outsourcing, close to 16% wage cut on top, loss of retiree medical, termination of the pension, and a 6% pay raise for a five year contract.

You contradict yourself in your own post!

Proof of another deliberate lie.

Well done!

 

[swamt]

Hey Overspeed;
Here is some more evidence for you. Below is a quote from the IAM's local president. Notice where he states that they new this was coming, as well as, and I quote; "United now has the flexibility to outsource "ALL" of its heavy maintenance work, which involves taking apart and rebuilding giant engines and airframes." Cap letters and quotations added by me. Keep posting OS, you really are helping the AMFA drive.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"But the bankrupt carrier also is changing the way it does business. As part of a new six-year contract with its 12,000 mechanics, United now has the flexibility to outsource all of its heavy maintenance work, which involves taking apart and rebuilding giant engines and airframes.

The Indianapolis closing seemed likely after United in March said it was temporarily closing the facility because of a falloff in traffic related to the Iraq war, union officials said.

"We've been anticipating it," said Ben Nunnally, president of Local Lodge 2294 of the International Association of Machinists, which represents the 1,200 Indianapolis workers affected by the closing. "They were unable to say it straight out. But they've been shipping United tools and parts since March, when they announced the temporary closing. The most we can do is keep our chins up and go forward and be successful in whatever we do.""

 

[Bob Owens]

I am not conceding anything, the TWU has done enough of that over the yrs here at AA. Now AFW is closed, where did all those jobs GO? The twu let AA close AFW forced families lives to be disrupted.

You forgot MCI closed as well. MCI closed without a BK filing.

According to what I read here the filing with the NMB said we had 22000 mechanics in 2004, now we have around 10,000. So using Overspins logic we lost over 50% of the jobs, in addition to 80% of Holiday pay, around 70% of our year sick time, 50% of our OT after 12 hours, as much as 50% of our vacation, all things our peers at BK carriers kept.

Not sure where OS is getting his UAL figures, but using what I'm guessing is his rationale (the actual term between the old and new contract?) and applying it to our 2003 deal that means that we had 9 year 4 month contract with only 7% increases and that was not in BK. So in BK UAL got more increases than we got outside of BK. In fact its likely that because our contract outside of BK was so bad that they couldn't, even in BK go for as much as they got outside of BK, that our deal, using Overspins logic, in BK was better than our deal outside of BK. As far as comparing our deal in BK to UALs deal we do not know how long the actual term will be, they could extend this one four years as well.

 

[Overspeed]

I am not conceding anything, the TWU has done enough of that over the yrs here at AA. Now AFW is closed, where did all those jobs GO? The twu let AA close AFW forced families lives to be disrupted.

As we replace the fleet here at AA, be honest and tell us all what is going to happen to the work,the heavy checks, as we shed the older aircraft? What about the 757 seats being done outside AA. The work being done in South America. As we shed the MD80's and the 757 and the 767-200.

Where are those jobs going to go? O/s tell us what is the TWU's plan for the rest of us who work the line? Are we going to take another pay cut to make you look good, keep them on payroll but take money and vacation, holidays, medical and what ever else you feel will promote the job saving at aa. I would rather get laid off due to seniority and wait for the recall after a while at least when and if I decide to come back the job would be worth it.

BUT NO YOU and the other TWU Intl Officers and the kiss a$%TWU coolaide drinkers in Tulsa think its better to keep guys on the job cutting $$$$ from the rest of us. That is why we guys who support AMFA and want you Gone.

We don't want the Tulsa guys to loose their job, but we wanted a regional pay to work in the high dollar market cities but NO, NO, it is better for the T-town boys who have a $40k cost of living dictate to the $80K cost of living city mechanics.

"Thats why" , it has NOTHING to do with AMFA, it is all the concessions you guys have given up over all the yrs. The airlines are doing away with O/H bases, and all the unions are now falling to the companies cuts.

So all your spinning that AMFA is at fault, Nothing but a lie. IAM/IBT/TWU and amfa all have failed in this to stop the outsourcing of american jobs.

Why don't you guys get together and use all the power of labor to force the FAA and the DOT to stop the american jobs from going overseas, save the aircraft mechanics.

Don't tell us you are and that you lobbied to make those changes. Show us.. Tell your buddy Hoffa and Little to make that deal instead of selling us short. Oh by the way get the IAM to help and the AFL-CIO. Isn't that why we pay dues, or is it for you and Bobby G. and the others at the TWU Intl to get rich?

None of these cuts effect you,, so you really don't care. That's why we want you GONE.

AMFA at AA​

Yes AFW is closed for AO but still open for TAESL and those are TWU jobs. Yes some work is being outsourced but nowhere near what was done at UA, CO,US, DL, or NW under the BK agreements there. The TWU did do a much better job at protecting jobs than any of those places and their unions (or non-union at DL). AMFA, IBT, and the IAM saw far more jobs go out the door and families disrupted than with the TWU. What about AS? They weren't in BK and AMFA did nothing to stop the closure of AS only overhaul base in OAK. 360 M&R gone or 50% of the AMFA membership in one day! Is that what we can expect from AMFA power? No thanks brother. They can keep the satin bowling jackets.

The work that will be reduced by new aircraft will drive down the amount of in-house and outside work. If you have new planes and they have less labor and material needed than 65% of that will be done inside, and 35% outside. Less work will be outsourced in the future. But as those airplanes age, then work goes up, and so do the jobs that will be done inside as well. The TWU scope clause protects future work, the AMFA and IBT scope clauses do not. AS has been adding planes, how many new overhaul lines do they have? None. At WN they had to reach 622 aircraft just to get one more overhaul line for a total of four! AA even under the new CBA will have 4 to 5 times that for a similar size fleet! AMFA sucks when it comes to protecting jobs.

No more pay cuts for the foreseeable future. When the automatic wage adjustment kicks in - not in any BK CBA by AMFA, IBT, or IAM - you will be able to buy more satin jackets. You will most likely be at $38 and change in less than three years. Most likely more. If we had taken the May 2010 TA we would have been at that three years ago. But the pro-AMFA/AMP officers said they were going to get a better deal. Oops, that back fired. Kind of like the AMFA debacle at NWA where everything but two stations got outsourced. Big win AMFA.

I agree, we need to get the FAA to make the playing field level for all. Time for the membership and all unions to unite, organize the unorganized, and stop raiding other airline's membership. Corporate America is laughing their butts off while we destroy ourselves.

I am living these cuts. I wanted to get a bigger pay raise like you but listen, if we had gone to abrogation then there is a strong possibility that all or most of AO in TULE and DWH would be gone. Those pesky T-Town boys (your words) would be gone from T-Town but a lot of them would be in MIA, JFK, LAX, DFW, ORD, etc...bumping thousands out of the line. Talk about displacing families. No early out would have driven thousands that were not bumped under the current CBA package. It is very possible that people like you would be passing AMFA cards through the fence to get them signed. But you are probably right, those that remained would in the future get a great pay raise. With 3,000 to 4,000 AO, back shop, and other support jobs gone to low paying MRO's around the world AA management could give us our geo-pay.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Hey Don,

"I agree, we need to get the FAA to make the playing field level for all. Time for the membership and all unions to unite, organize the unorganized, and stop raiding other airline's membership. Corporate America is laughing their butts off while we destroy ourselves."

Level playing field? Okay, how about a level playing field for the membership? How about the membership getting to vote for all union positions? How about the membership controlling the contract?

All unions to unite? You mean unite as long as sell outs are taken care of at the expense of the membership? Yes, there should be unity but unity for all AMTs to belong to one craft & democratic union and the twu, iam and ibt are not that union.

AMFA is that union!

 

[Bob Owens]

Yes AFW is closed for AO but still open for TAESL and those are TWU jobs. Yes some work is being outsourced but nowhere near what was done at UA, CO,US, DL, or NW under the BK agreements there. The TWU did do a much better job at protecting jobs than any of those places and their unions (or non-union at DL). AMFA, IBT, and the IAM saw far more jobs go out the door and families disrupted than with the TWU.

Protecting jobs? Really? Fewer families disrupted? Every family has seen disruption resulting from the loss of half our pay, the loss of vacation and Holidays, sick time and IOD. We didnt save jobs, we destroyed them. Dreams of college for our kids crushed, hopes for a retirement wiped out.

But as those airplanes age, then work goes up, and so do the jobs that will be done inside as well. The TWU scope clause protects future work, the AMFA and IBT scope clauses do not.

By the time that happens even our contract will be amendable, in other words the protections you claim it provides wont go into effect until long after this deal has been renegotiated, and its looking that most likely it will be renegoted by another union.

No more pay cuts for the foreseeable future

Wrong, we are pretty much guaranteed a paycut every year with medical benefit increases and increases in deductables and copays. As AA hires more part timers in Fleet it will drive up medical costs for everyone else. Aa saves money in salaries and passes the increased medical costs on to us.

When the automatic wage adjustment kicks in - not in any BK CBA by AMFA, IBT, or IAM - you will be able to buy more satin jackets.

None of them went into BK at the bottom of the industry and then went another 20% lower. Going down to five Holidays at half pay, as little as one week of vacation, and no doubletime ever wasnt in any BK by AMFA, IBT or IAM either, oh yes, thats right, we gave all that up before BK. Did UAL, or Delta ever end up $4/hr behind AA? Did they ever end up with fewer holidays, less vacation and less sick time, even when they were in BK and we werent? NO!!!

Between now and the wage adjustment, three years from now, how much more money will we lose? I figure just on straight time hours around $25,000 in wages, around $11,000 in Holiday pay, and around $5000 in vacation. Even in BK our peers at UAL or Delta never fell as far behind us are we have fallen behind them. You come here and try and spin this as "we gave up less in BK than anyone else", yet leave out the very important point that we went in with less than anyone else, there was nothing left to take!!!.

I agree, we need to get the FAA to make the playing field level for all. Time for the membership and all unions to unite, organize the unorganized, and stop raiding other airline's membership. Corporate America is laughing their butts off while we destroy ourselves.

Unions need to be willing to fight. The TWU allowed AA to stonewall for four years and never demanded to be released. Judges, legislators and the FAA should not be expected to fight our fight.

I am living these cuts. I wanted to get a bigger pay raise like you but listen, if we had gone to abrogation then there is a strong possibility that all or most of AO in TULE and DWH would be gone.

Really? What are you basing that claim on? Where would they have sent all that work? You are aware that the company shared a study that proclaimed that with narrow body OH "Capacity is tight". That the company admitted that if they did try and outsource NB OH that they would likely have to pay a premium to get places to do the work, they even factored in the premium to show that there would be minimal cost savings from outsourcing. If AAR and other outfits are having trouble retaining mechanics to do the work they already have how could they have taken on more work?

Those pesky T-Town boys (your words) would be gone from T-Town but a lot of them would be in MIA, JFK, LAX, DFW, ORD, etc...bumping thousands out of the line.

You seem to forget that the average age of mechanics at AA is 55. Most in T town, like many did in AFW, would retire or leave the company before they bumped to MIA, JFK, LAX or ORD. JFK is looking for 60 guys. Not one mechanic from NY was bumped to the street.

No early out would have driven thousands that were not bumped under the current CBA package.

United guys were offered $75 k. early outs save the company a lot of money and lower average costs. Since layoffs are done from the bottom the result is the youngest, cheapest workers are the ones eliminated, and the way things are once they leave AA they would not come back, they would refuse recall like 90% of the recalls to NY1 did.

With 3,000 to 4,000 AO, back shop, and other support jobs gone to low paying MRO's around the world AA management could give us our geo-pay.

How much less does AAR or Spirit pay compared to AA? Not starting wages but top wages. Here in NY I believe the top paid mechanics at AAR earn just shy of $30/hr. Granted ther are few of them and they are non-union but then again they dont work outside or have to commute to the airport either. How much are our OSMs in the back shops earning? The fact is that AA has become a low paying airline that isnt that far off in pay compared to the MROs that you speak of. The fact is that our wages are so low its not cost effective to send NB work out domestically (oh yes, thats right, our deal doesnt have restrictions on where they send the work like United and WN have, AA can send any work any where), the work staying in house has nothing to do with the language in Article 1, it has to do with the numbers in Article 4, 5 6 etc. thats not fighting, thats rolling over and giving the company everything they could ever want. People do not join unions to get them bottom of the industry wages and work rules, they join unions to not end up that way.

In 2003 Little told us to give the concessions because if we gave concessions the BK would be eaiser. He siad its not a matter of "if" but when the company would file. Then his experts admitted that we would have been better off going into BK fat than skinny. We were at the bottom going into this, now we have seen new depths as far as how deep the bottom can be, and you guys brought us here. Keep saying that you saved jobs, eveybody knows that what youy really did was make sure AA got everything a company could ever want out of a union.

 

[lineguy43]

Yes AFW is closed for AO but still open for TAESL and those are TWU jobs. Yes some work is being outsourced but nowhere near what was done at UA, CO,US, DL, or NW under the BK agreements there. The TWU did do a much better job at protecting jobs than any of those places and their unions (or non-union at DL). AMFA, IBT, and the IAM saw far more jobs go out the door and families disrupted than with the TWU. What about AS? They weren't in BK and AMFA did nothing to stop the closure of AS only overhaul base in OAK. 360 M&R gone or 50% of the AMFA membership in one day! Is that what we can expect from AMFA power? No thanks brother. They can keep the satin bowling jackets.

The work that will be reduced by new aircraft will drive down the amount of in-house and outside work. If you have new planes and they have less labor and material needed than 65% of that will be done inside, and 35% outside. Less work will be outsourced in the future. But as those airplanes age, then work goes up, and so do the jobs that will be done inside as well. The TWU scope clause protects future work, the AMFA and IBT scope clauses do not. AS has been adding planes, how many new overhaul lines do they have? None. At WN they had to reach 622 aircraft just to get one more overhaul line for a total of four! AA even under the new CBA will have 4 to 5 times that for a similar size fleet! AMFA sucks when it comes to protecting jobs.

No more pay cuts for the foreseeable future. When the automatic wage adjustment kicks in - not in any BK CBA by AMFA, IBT, or IAM - you will be able to buy more satin jackets. You will most likely be at $38 and change in less than three years. Most likely more. If we had taken the May 2010 TA we would have been at that three years ago. But the pro-AMFA/AMP officers said they were going to get a better deal. Oops, that back fired. Kind of like the AMFA debacle at NWA where everything but two stations got outsourced. Big win AMFA.

I agree, we need to get the FAA to make the playing field level for all. Time for the membership and all unions to unite, organize the unorganized, and stop raiding other airline's membership. Corporate America is laughing their butts off while we destroy ourselves.

I am living these cuts. I wanted to get a bigger pay raise like you but listen, if we had gone to abrogation then there is a strong possibility that all or most of AO in TULE and DWH would be gone. Those pesky T-Town boys (your words) would be gone from T-Town but a lot of them would be in MIA, JFK, LAX, DFW, ORD, etc...bumping thousands out of the line. Talk about displacing families. No early out would have driven thousands that were not bumped under the current CBA package. It is very possible that people like you would be passing AMFA cards through the fence to get them signed. But you are probably right, those that remained would in the future get a great pay raise. With 3,000 to 4,000 AO, back shop, and other support jobs gone to low paying MRO's around the world AA management could give us our geo-pay.

If it hadn't been for AMFA at NWA in our 2001 contract you all would not be even approaching 30 dollars an hr and neither would any Iam represented carriers mechanics. You would all be within 5 dollars an hour of a sr ramp agent like I was for my entire career under the Iam. Our NW contract under AMFA was the ONLY raise in recent memory that the Twu got for the AA bunch.. Nice of you to ride our coattails and brandish it as some accomplishment the twu negotiated.

 

[Vortilon]

If it hadn't been for AMFA at NWA in our 2001 contract you all would not be even approaching 30 dollars an hr and neither would any Iam represented carriers mechanics. You would all be within 5 dollars an hour of a sr ramp agent like I was for my entire career under the Iam. Our NW contract under AMFA was the ONLY raise in recent memory that the Twu got for the AA bunch.. Nice of you to ride our coattails and brandish it as some accomplishment the twu negotiated.

The man has a valid point.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I thought Overspeed made a post he was leaving the forums. Am I mistaken?

 

[Overspeed]

You contradict yourself in your own post!

Proof of another deliberate lie.

Well done!

No I did not, the UA agreement was started being negotiated in 2003 so the amendable was 2009. The TWU agreement was 5 years from DOS to amendable date. I pointed out that the UA CBA was 6 years and 8 months from the time the IAM started and you guys finished was 7.5% raise. The TWU negotiated on the concession deal in 2003 for a few months and it was amendable by 2008 or five years with a 6%.

I'm working on the puppets for you brother.

 

[Overspeed]

If it hadn't been for AMFA at NWA in our 2001 contract you all would not be even approaching 30 dollars an hr and neither would any Iam represented carriers mechanics. You would all be within 5 dollars an hour of a sr ramp agent like I was for my entire career under the Iam. Our NW contract under AMFA was the ONLY raise in recent memory that the Twu got for the AA bunch.. Nice of you to ride our coattails and brandish it as some accomplishment the twu negotiated.

If it hadn't been for AMFA the NWA guys would still have a job.