Amfa Challenging Twu On The Internet?

[MCI AFL-CIO]

Dan Cunningham and Bob Owens deserved what they received. The trials were done per the Constitution and the results were the same. The majority of the TWU members were getting tired of these self interest elected officers advocating the withdrawl from the TWU while collecting Pay from the Union.

If either one of them had any morals or ethics they would have taken it apon themselfs and done the honorable thing and resigned. But it is obvious neither have the caliber it takes to do the honorable thing so the Constitution was enforced.

We the majority of the TWU favored this avenue. The International did the right thing. No different than amfa or any other organization.

Dan Cunningham and Bob Owens deserved what they received. The trials were done per the Constitution and the results were the same. The majority of the TWU members were getting tired of these self interest elected officers advocating the withdrawl from the TWU while collecting Pay from the Union


If it is true Dan Cunningham and Bob Owens deserved what they received, Clear somehting for us at our local, 530.................

Do we as members, who voted in a fair election and voted for the Presidnet of our local, Butch, who won fairly, but after less than 3 months, our E Board, decided Butch was not a team player and held a hearing, allowing his successor, to do the questioning, and voted to oust as our president, the president, the membership voted for, not his successor, and yet, 5 months later, after numerous appeals to the international, and petitions signed and sent to the international, we, Local 530 have not heard the outcome of the appeal? It has yet to be heard.
Also, do we as a local, deserve to not, have an election to replace the VP, who succeeded Butch? How long is reasonable to expect to hear the decision on what the e board did to our local? What is our local to do for representation, we are shorthanded if our representatives should be summoned again for anything contractural?

Before all the hollering, I want to clarify this,...................this could have happened to our local if we were AMFA,......................this did not happen to our local because we are TWU. This happened because, our local, your local, anyones local, can and will have the same problem, its called "clashing" or as we say here, Butch didnt fit into the "click" our E Board officers have.
Our E Board wants to be able to dictate to how and what the president (Butch) does, this could and will happen at any local, TWU or AMFA, if the officers dont see eye to eye, and if there is even a spark of jealousy





We the majority of the TWU favored this avenue. The International did the right thing. No different than amfa or any other organization



Its time that the TWU ATD does get more involved, its time the ATD starts addressing the cares and needs of the membership. If it is the right thing what the TWU did to Bob Owens and Dan Cunningham, its past time they do the right thing for our local and your local. Its past time that we as members demand a change to the constitution and by laws, to take away the power the E Board has allowing them the luxury of "overthrowing" officers the membership voted in.

My problem is not with the TWUATD, but with clarifying, within locals. I didnt know when we elected officers of our local, we gave them the power to judge other officers as well as members? Judge without merit, but rather through jealousy
Our local acted quicly to oust Butch, but yet, our local stalls at requesting a speedy and thorough decision, .............If the verdict holds, Its time for us to vote a replacement, 5 months is to long

 

[Thomas Paine]

Dan Cunningham and Bob Owens deserved what they received. The trials were done per the Constitution and the results were the same. The majority of the TWU members were getting tired of these self interest elected officers advocating the withdrawl from the TWU while collecting Pay from the Union.

If either one of them had any morals or ethics they would have taken it apon themselfs and done the honorable thing and resigned. But it is obvious neither have the caliber it takes to do the honorable thing so the Constitution was enforced.

We the majority of the TWU favored this avenue. The International did the right thing. No different than amfa or any other organization.

Dan Cunningham and Bob Owens deserved what they received. The trials were done per the Constitution and the results were the same. The majority of the TWU members were getting tired of these self interest elected officers advocating the withdrawl from the TWU while collecting Pay from the Union


If it is true Dan Cunningham and Bob Owens deserved what they received, Clear somehting for us at our local, 530.................

Do we as members, who voted in a fair election and voted for the Presidnet of our local, Butch, who won fairly, but after less than 3 months, our E Board, decided Butch was not a team player and held a hearing, allowing his successor, to do the questioning, and voted to oust as our president, the president, the membership voted for, not his successor, and yet, 5 months later, after numerous appeals to the international, and petitions signed and sent to the international, we, Local 530 have not heard the outcome of the appeal? It has yet to be heard.
Also, do we as a local, deserve to not, have an election to replace the VP, who succeeded Butch? How long is reasonable to expect to hear the decision on what the e board did to our local? What is our local to do for representation, we are shorthanded if our representatives should be summoned again for anything contractural?

Before all the hollering, I want to clarify this,...................this could have happened to our local if we were AMFA,......................this did not happen to our local because we are TWU. This happened because, our local, your local, anyones local, can and will have the same problem, its called "clashing" or as we say here, Butch didnt fit into the "click" our E Board officers have.
Our E Board wants to be able to dictate to how and what the president (Butch) does, this could and will happen at any local, TWU or AMFA, if the officers dont see eye to eye, and if there is even a spark of jealousy





We the majority of the TWU favored this avenue. The International did the right thing. No different than amfa or any other organization



Its time that the TWU ATD does get more involved, its time the ATD starts addressing the cares and needs of the membership. If it is the right thing what the TWU did to Bob Owens and Dan Cunningham, its past time they do the right thing for our local and your local. Its past time that we as members demand a change to the constitution and by laws, to take away the power the E Board has allowing them the luxury of "overthrowing" officers the membership voted in.

My problem is not with the TWUATD, but with clarifying, within locals. I didnt know when we elected officers of our local, we gave them the power to judge other officers as well as members? Judge without merit, but rather through jealousy
Our local acted quicly to oust Butch, but yet, our local stalls at requesting a speedy and thorough decision, .............If the verdict holds, Its time for us to vote a replacement, 5 months is to long

The word is that Tulsa did not like Butch either.

You can appeal at the Convention, in 2005.

 

[Checking it Out]

Bob, the TWU has done more to help us stay employed than Amfa could ever dream of doing. By your scenario by the time Amfa comes around to do the right thing 80% of the work will be outsourced by third party maintenance. (source Amfa natl web site) With Delta and USAir in financial trouble and on the brink of going under AA will be under extreme pressure to do the same as the rest of the majors.

We have a choice here to either change and adapt or go by the wayside of the Airlines like Eastern and Pan am.

The members are smart enough to make that choice and they did earlier this year. Whether we like it or not it was a hard choice to make. On the other hand you and the rest of the Amfa wantabes attempted to destroy the overhaul work at AA like they have done at many of the Airlines they represent. How long do you think it will take to completely eliminate your job if Amfa were to get in? At United it was overnight at NW it’s a slow death.

Look at the start up carriers? Who are they contracting with to do their maintenance it’s not the majors. Why is that? The price! Unless we compete in the Industry, AA will have no choice but to Outsource work. With the TWU we have a fighting chance.
Think about this, many times the Amfa wantabes have come to the current members involved in the TWU and have asked them to stay involved if Representation was to change hands. Why? Simple! every time you ask one of the Amfa organizers to help it is typical. We don’t get involved now and won’t if Amfa gets in. So what is the difference?

I suspect that the same members will be running the show. So what has changed? You bring up the secretary for Sonny making over 100,000 a year? Than in the same statement you point out about her being on the road to help the members? I’m curious, your comment about AGW? Would you be willing to spend half the time on the road each month making 60,000 Thousand a Year? Are you willing to pay an administrator $800,000 a year to do paper work? Logic dictates you will do the same thing no matter who represents you! Complain.

If you stop and think about the trend Amfa has created and the many start-up FBO’s created from this! You will see the damage that has been created. The Line Maintenance will soon be Outsourced along with the Heavy Maintenance work. So what is the answer? Definitely not Amfa!!!

 

[Superside]

Dan Cunningham and Bob Owens deserved what they received. The trials were done per the Constitution and the results were the same. The majority of the TWU members were getting tired of these self interest elected officers advocating the withdrawl from the TWU while collecting Pay from the Union.

If either one of them had any morals or ethics they would have taken it apon themselfs and done the honorable thing and resigned. But it is obvious neither have the caliber it takes to do the honorable thing so the Constitution was enforced.

We the majority of the TWU favored this avenue. The International did the right thing. No different than amfa or any other organization.

I'd like to add a few comments.

WOW BOB,
A few comments?
THAT WAS MORE LIKE A SWIFT KICK IN THE BALLS...LMAO!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, the TWU has done more to help us stay employed than Amfa could ever dream of doing. By your scenario by the time Amfa comes around to do the right thing 80% of the work will be outsourced by third party maintenance. (source Amfa natl web site) With Delta and USAir in financial trouble and on the brink of going under AA will be under extreme pressure to do the same as the rest of the majors.

We have a choice here to either change and adapt or go by the wayside of the Airlines like Eastern and Pan am.

The members are smart enough to make that choice and they did earlier this year. Whether we like it or not it was a hard choice to make. On the other hand you and the rest of the Amfa wantabes attempted to destroy the overhaul work at AA like they have done at many of the Airlines they represent. How long do you think it will take to completely eliminate your job if Amfa were to get in? At United it was overnight at NW it’s a slow death.

Look at the start up carriers? Who are they contracting with to do their maintenance it’s not the majors. Why is that? The price! Unless we compete in the Industry, AA will have no choice but to Outsource work. With the TWU we have a fighting chance.
Think about this, many times the Amfa wantabes have come to the current members involved in the TWU and have asked them to stay involved if Representation was to change hands. Why? Simple! every time you ask one of the Amfa organizers to help it is typical. We don’t get involved now and won’t if Amfa gets in. So what is the difference?

I suspect that the same members will be running the show. So what has changed? You bring up the secretary for Sonny making over 100,000 a year? Than in the same statement you point out about her being on the road to help the members? I’m curious, your comment about AGW? Would you be willing to spend half the time on the road each month making 60,000 Thousand a Year? Are you willing to pay an administrator $800,000 a year to do paper work? Logic dictates you will do the same thing no matter who represents you! Complain.

If you stop and think about the trend Amfa has created and the many start-up FBO’s created from this! You will see the damage that has been created. The Line Maintenance will soon be Outsourced along with the Heavy Maintenance work. So what is the answer? Definitely not Amfa!!!

CIO;

I would think that with all the money your Local is spending on a PR firm that they could help you put on a better spin than that.

The TWU has helped us stay employed? Tell that to all the guys who are laid off.

Outsourcing predates AMFA. Outsourcing has been the subject of negotiations since at least 1950. In 43 years there has been little change in the companys contractual rights as far as outsourcing. Whats even worse is that the TWU is lax at enforcing what limits there are, instead they expect the members to look for violations and the locals to foot the bill for enforcing the contract, Charlotte for example. The only "right" we have is to be allowed to lower our wage to the point where outsourcing is not cost effective. The TWU will even open contracts early to do this instead of fighting for a scope clause.

You are right that we need to change and adapt, unions that is. The TWU refuses to change, even after 20 consecutive years of concessionary bargaining they still insist that its not their fault. They blame the members.

So now the TWU members were smart enough, do you mean smart enough considering the fact that you claimed that they only have 15 minute attention spans?

I believe that all of the outsourcing and layoffs at UAL were done prior to AMFA.

NWA had layoffs and so did we but unless those guys are laid off at least two years they will still make more than those of us who were not laid of at AA. Layoffs have always been a part of this industry.

AMFA secured a defined cap on outsourcing where none existed, they got more done in one contract than the TWU did in 50 years. Prove that AMFA has advocated outsoucing at any of the Airlines where they represent workers.

Listening to you it seems that you believe that Unions have no power. You make it sound like the company can simply do away with all of us unless we "change" ie "work for lower wages" . How about demanding that we keep Overhaul in house or we all strike? Did you ever think of that one? You seem to think that union people got what they did over the years out of the goodness of the Airlines heart. Its understandable that you may think this way since the last time this union struck at AA was 1969. I was in the third grade then. After all to you people in Local 514 there is very little difference between Union and management right? Doesnt the Union flag hang right up there with the company flag? Dont you give out shirts boasting of your company/union "partnership"?

Now I dont think that union and management should be at each others throats constantly, only when they are trying to take something away, but they should not be in bed together either.

Right now a lot of airlines are contracting out to the cheapest provider they can find. The only reason why AA is not doing it is because they pay less in house than they can get it outsourced. So where is the union advantage? If we are going to "adapt" to whatever the company wants in order to remain competative then why pay dues to the TWU?

When the hull losses start adding up they will go back to doing more work in house or sending it to UAL who recently announced their entry into the MRO business. SWA has announced that they are planning to bring more work in house, as they get larger it makes more sense and Jet Blue is building a new hangar at JFK. Outsourcing is not always the cheapest route, sometimes even with paying a higher wage its cheaper to keep work in house where the company has greater control over other costs and quality. If not then most of your work would have been outsourced years ago.

Delta Airlines and Brittish Airlines have taken on enough work at JFK to completely offset their Maintenance costs. They pay their mechanics more than AA. AA has the biggest hangar on the airport yet they contract in little work. If they did then we would be the "Mexicans or Southeast Asians of the airport-the low wage workers".

AA has been outsourcing forv years. Remember when they were sending the A-300 engines to Europe and Canada? The company found that they were not saving any money so they brought it back in house. It was not strong TWU language, it was economics. Work that came back without the TWU.

The fact is with the TWU we have no chance, after 20 years I think that all AA workers have given the TWU enough chances. They got to go.

Even if the same people are running the show at the Local level getting rid of Sonny Hall, Jim Little and all the other incompetants will change things a lot. Members will no longer have all the excuses they have now for not participating, not to say that all of a sudden everyone will, and they will have the right to hold everyone accountable. They wont have a Jim Little that they cant vote out. Members will have the right to recall all officers, something they do not have now.

I did not say that Sonnys secretary was there to help the members, you did. Whatever the AGW decides to pay is up to them. $60,000 may be too low but $200,000 is excessive when all they can do is bring back concessions. If we were going in the opposite direction, then they could pay $1,000,000 and I would not care. If they were accountable then the pay would not be as much of an issue. Its just fustrating to be forced to pay excessive salaries to people who do not perform and that we cant get rid of.

You keep repeating the same old lie that AMFA started the outsourcing trend. AA has had one of the highest rates for outsourcing and we are TWU. AA has been outsoucing work as long as the TWU has been on the property. The March 9,1950 letter from CR Smith proves this. In 1985 they revised the contract to allow the company to contract out galley equipement as in the August 1, 1985 letter and what about Rockwell Collins, Matsushiutu and Tank Tigers? Thats just the out of TWU outsourcing, what about the transfer of work to other departments? If we did R&D we could get hundreds of mechanics back. How many mechanics jobs did the TWU save when they transferred R&D and Deiicing to Fleet? How many jobs were saved by taking away a week of vacation that we earned last year? How many jobs were saved by moving the S back to 1998?

The fact is that the TWU is the trendsetter and they have been for 20 years.

They set the trend for lowering wages across the industry. AA, SWA flight attendants, Worldwide baggage handlers, if you want to find the lowest wages in the industry just look for the TWU logo. The greatest threat to real union workers is the TWU.

When confronted with this they respond;
1) "Those concessions created jobs"
or when that excuse gets debunked,
2) "The members voted for it."

The first excuse is right out of the union busters and the RTW handbook. It is an anti fair wage statement that says that low wages create jobs. Its shameful when a union becomes so much of a business that they use the same chiche's.

The second excuse is simply a disengenunous cop out and typical of what can be expected of unaccountable incompetant self serving leaders.

Insanity is defined as performing the same act and expecting a different result. What can we realistically expect from an unchanged TWU? 20 more years of concessions. The fact is that we dont know what to expect from AMFA over the long haul, but we know that with the TWU we will continue to lose, and there is not much left. There is one definite answer , get out of the TWU!

I'll ask again.

What is wrong with the concept of getting all the mechanics in one union?

Would not such a structure enhance our bargaining power?

Do you believe that there is an advantage to having mechanics split up between several non-airline unions as opposed to being united in one union?

Could the TWU ever offer us this option, assuming that the TWU does not expect that with AA's lower labor costs they put everyone else out of business?

The fact is that 20 years of concessions prove that we have given the TWU/ATD ample opportunity to prove themselves as a union. With this latest agreement they have shown that it was 20 years wasted, they failed, utterly and completely. The TWU/ATD is a small quasi-union that has a strategy of offering employers sub-union wages and benifits in the hopes that the employer grows with the competative edge that the low wage provides. Thats why most TWU/ATD drives fail. The TWU/ATD is a scab organization. Its leaders cross picket lines and cater to management.

 

[Bob Owens]

Dan Cunningham and Bob Owens deserved what they received. The trials were done per the Constitution and the results were the same. The majority of the TWU members were getting tired of these self interest elected officers advocating the withdrawl from the TWU while collecting Pay from the Union.

If either one of them had any morals or ethics they would have taken it apon themselfs and done the honorable thing and resigned. But it is obvious neither have the caliber it takes to do the honorable thing so the Constitution was enforced.

We the majority of the TWU favored this avenue. The International did the right thing. No different than amfa or any other organization.

I'd like to add a few comments.

WOW BOB,
A few comments?
THAT WAS MORE LIKE A SWIFT KICK IN THE BALLS...LMAO!!

Impossible, he does not have any!

 

[Checking it Out]

Bob wrote;
I'll ask again.

What is wrong with the concept of getting all the mechanics in one union?

Would not such a structure enhance our bargaining power?

If you believe this than why do you advocate going to an organization that believes in contracting out their work starting with the administration functions and have 33% of their members on layoff?

If this was an organization to go to than have them show us they care about their members and are willing to walk out at the Airlines over the contracts they cannot negotiate at this time? If they are so great than why is bases continuing to close? If their so great than why is United planning on closing all their Heavy Maintenace work?

Show us something they have done for their members as a whole in the last 2 months?

If their so great than show us why they only got back 5 Members at PDX and still have 60% on Layoff? They believe in contracting out all Heavy Maintenance and collect high dues from the few and funnel those funds to the McCormick group so they can plunder as they wish!!!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Mr. Owens,

WOW, does your blood pressure rise when you type that information as much as mine rises when I read it?

The TWU is a pathetic Communistic control or should I say out-of-control union.

And to think, we were all once TWU supporters?

I think those fools down in Tulsa are being deprived on information. How could anybody read the facts and not see change is needed?

CIO is obviously married to an E-board member.

I think there are even some pictures of him in Philly attending an AMFA meeting for USAirways mechanics.

Bob, if nobody has told you of late. Thanks for the job both you and Chuck did while holding office. I was just a supporter of change for the mechanics, now I think we should help all working men and women at AA to be relieved of TWU representation.

Flight Attendents First - 1974
Dispathcers Second - December 2003
Mechanics Third - Mid 2004
Fleet and Stores - Early 2005
Meterologist - default OUTSOURCED JOBS

And we shouldn't forget,
Bus Drivers - Shortly after next Communist Convention

Thanks.

By the way the AGW may suprise you, especially if we help them out.

You have to remember that the bulk of Title III live in densely populated relatively high cost areas. The same areas where AMFA support is the heaviest. They never had any options before, it was TWU or non-union. Their vote was closer than ours for rejection and they actually rejected the 95 agreement.

Recently we saw Nester Rodriguez get the axe, other Presidents are likely to follow. Needless to say these Presidents will blame the International in an attempt to save their own hides. And thats just fine.

If we help to insure that Title III realizes that the International is party to the agreement therefore has complete control of the contract and inform them of the AGWs goal to unite all the baggage handlers of the industry into an accountable union, with reduced dues to boot, we could see them file before us!

 

[Rusty]

CIO, we know you are disapointed that you will not get to go the the interanational and act like a king but, things happen and you are going to have to get over it.

You have to be the one of the densest people I have ever met. UNIONS DO NOT OUTSOURCE WORK, companies do. Unions do not want jobs to be outsourced (the exception here might be, like the TWU's outsourcing of cabin cleaners to another company but, they are still represented by the TWU). We still vote under either union on matters that include concessions. The biggest differences are accountability, integrity, and alignment.

The TWU has no accountability. We cannot recall anyone. For international officers they did not even take a payout, yet they want to tell us how we should vote. If you can even believe the outcome of the vote. Let’s see, one time the ballots were shredded by accident, another time they were lost, and this last time thousands of people did not get a pin number.

When you compare the TWU's administration cost to AMFA's you will find the McCormick group a very cheap alternative, leaving plenty of money to advance our craft and class. The administrative costs of the TWU's automobiles alone cost as much as the administrative costs of all of AMFA. The McCormick group also keeps track of all outsourcing cost from the company's books. The TWU has no idea what the outsource cost are of AA. Here is a copy of the TWU's LM-2.

You say AMFA's bases are continuing to close!!! Well that is a flat out lie CIO and you know it, first UNIONS do not close bases. Second AMR is still closing bases, or do you not consider STL a base? How about Lawton Oklahoma? Southwest Airlines says they are bringing work in house because of the AMFA contract. Northwest Airlines says they brought more work in-house after the AMFA/NW contract. The IAM/NW contract before AMFA was when outsourcing of work was at its peak. The force-majure clause was invoked since 9/11 to lay off people but the out-sourcing of work was done under the IAM. Production of labor has increased dramatically at NW because they are happy with their contract, with the exception of a couple of disgruntled officers that are no different than you will most likely be once MAFA is our bargining agent.

 

[Superside]

So! Now Outsourcing at NWA is at 60%! I have about 4 "Informer news letters" in my tool box that will show (TWU) inconsistentcy.
40%...No, 50%...No, 44%...No, Over 50%.... Come on CIO. This Is just one (or 4) of the many Inconsistencies The TWU is famous for.

 

[Rusty]

The TWU international spent over 2 million dollars on their well being, this does not include pay, full coverage health insurance, automobiles, nor their outlandish full pension plan. The 800k for administration costs through the McCormick group of AMFA is peanuts in comparison to the TWU's. From the dictionary:

( \Wel"fare`\, n. [Well + fare to go, to proceed, to happen.] Well-doing or well-being in any respect; the enjoyment of common blessings of life; exemption from any evil or calamity; prosperity; happiness.)

From page 11 of the TWU's LM-2:

 

[Boomer]

All I want to know is why the TWU ATD refused to process a grievance over station staffing that was a clear winner.

AMFA won station staffing arbitration at PDX, the TWU refuses to even arbitrate the same type of case even when they have a prior arbitration award as precedent.

 

[AMFAMAN]

So you are stating Bob that Cunningham's first trial did not look like a Halloween party gone bad with Schiable in drag?

Oh Earl the tough guy at a computer. This spineless jellyfish, management wannabe didn't have the balls to talk this trash when he met them both.

Now the tough guy 6 pack a day Earl who has no credibility or license,(this is why he can't afford to get bumped out to the line unlike most of the rest of us) is a tough guy behind the keyboard. This guy is such a farce now, he lies so much he doesn't even know what the truth is.

Wow Earl you truly are a punk, drunk and a coward. Can't wait to see you talk trash to their face at the next meeting or will you be to hungover to show.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

We have a choice here to either change and adapt or go by the wayside of the Airlines like Eastern and Pan am.


cio, "change" is exactly what the AMTs are going to do. We will "change" from an industrial union to a democratic craft union.

We will "change" the way contract negotiations are conducted.. open and the full information given to the membership as it happens.

We will "change" the perception of the AMT from the way the twu has presented us to the company.

We will "change" the way international positions are chosen. They will ALL be voted on by the membership. Not appointed like the twu.

Now, your constant harping on AMFA's outsourcing is a very tired horse. Please "change" your thought process and tell us all about the twu's outsourcing of Cabin Cleaners.

Lastly, do you think it possible for you to "change" your desire to act like a woman behind an alias? Try not being a coward all your life.

 

[Steve Connell]

Oh Earl the tough guy at a computer. This spineless jellyfish, management wannabe didn't have the balls to talk this trash when he met them both.

Now the tough guy 6 pack a day Earl who has no credibility or license,(this is why he can't afford to get bumped out to the line unlike most of the rest of us) is a tough guy behind the keyboard. This guy is such a farce now, he lies so much he doesn't even know what the truth is.

Wow Earl you truly are a punk, drunk and a coward. Can't wait to see you talk trash to their face at the next meeting or will you be to hungover to show

*******************************************************************

At the next meeting? Why not now and let's see who cowers to whom. Also since it seems as only the spineless guys use their own names...what's yours tough guy?...that's what I thought...no guts. I'm open to meeting any and all amfa boys, just ask.